Dye Loc vs ?

#26
This has been a great post!! Mikey has brought up an interesting point. There is average, good, better and best cleaning. No one argues which is the best cleaning. However, the synthetic area rug market is growing and most people I know do not want to pay for a cleaning that costs as much as the rug itself. In a lot of markets, there is not enough rugs to only do the best rug cleaning and be profitable enough to only be a rug washer. Salt Lake City is one of those marginal markets, even though we have an NBA franchise. As a rug washer in these type of markets, I believe you need to have different methods to provide different price points for the type of rugs available for your service. Every cleaner needs to decide what type of services you are going to provide for your market. You need to be trained to do the best cleaning, but it is no sin to do encapsulation cleaning if that is what the customer can afford or justify based on the cost of the rug.
From a rug owner's (lover's) perspective, I believe any cleaning is better than no cleaning. I have always cleaned my rugs, with a few notable exceptions. Vacuuming is something I enjoy doing every week on my rugs and should be done thoroughly before any type of cleaning.. When we get a good snowfall, I love taking some of the rugs outside to lay face down on the snow. There is more benefit to this when you live in a dry climate. My favorite way of cleaning my rugs is to encapsulate them with an acid dye fortified formula. I have extracted them many times over the years. Living in Utah in a fenced back yard where drying in no issue, I have hosed them down after pre-spraying both sides. We did a class in Salt Lake a few years ago, where we thoroughly pit washed one of my favorite rugs. It looked great. However, I decided not to tell my wife and kids about how it was cleaned. They did not comment about how clean it looked. This taught me that a lot of owners value clean but are not able to observe or perceive the level of clean.
If you live in an area where there is enough business to be a rug washer full time using best methods and practices, then be thankful. However, a lot of cleaners do not live in such an area and have to decide where they draw the line on the services they offer. We had a cleaner come from rural Wyoming come to our oriental rug class in Salt Lake a few years ago. His goal was to learn enough about rugs so that he could extract them safely and provide convenience and service to some of his customers. We all have to decide our concept of customer service. Personally, I am not going to condemn that cleaner in Wyoming.
Post of the week...
 
#27
allow rugs to bleed, and then 'fix them later'. Never seemed like sensible wash practice to me.

I agree 100%.
My statement was incomplete and what I meant was once the bleeding starts try to remove as much excess bleed as possible.
Hoping to refine my skills more in April and October.
Regards
 
#29
I am a believer of dosing (pre-treat, pre-spray) a dry rug before all of the water is added. Dosing the water causes you to use more chemistry. The water should be used to rinse out the chemistry and the soils. From what I have heard most use hard water. A lot of chemicals have water softening agents which get used up softening the water instead of cleaning the rug when you dose the water instead of the rug.
 

T Monahan

Supportive Member
#30
I use acetic acid as a weak rinse on rugs other than that I don't use dye sets or dye loc products..never have. I see horror stores on FB of guys using gallons of these products to wash a rug
I wonder how some of these guys make a living?
The story is that somebody is making a living. (Could it be the vendor?)
 
#31
Chemistry is around 3% of costs for a truckmount operator cleaning at $.20 per sq. ft. Labor is the biggest cost. My guess is that at $3.00 to $4.00 per foot, chemical properly used is insignificant. Labor is a big cost along with equipment. Better equipment reduces labor costs. The cost of a centrifuge is almost a lifetime supply of chemical. One thing that I have noticed is that labor costs in a pit wash system strongly correlates with the amount of water used. I worked with a rug washer in California who was under water restrictions. He changed to our pre-spray with less foam resulting in better cleaning, less water, and less labor.
 

T Monahan

Supportive Member
#32
Chemistry is around 3% of costs for a truckmount operator cleaning at $.20 per sq. ft. Labor is the biggest cost. My guess is that at $3.00 to $4.00 per foot, chemical properly used is insignificant. Labor is a big cost along with equipment. Better equipment reduces labor costs. The cost of a centrifuge is almost a lifetime supply of chemical. One thing that I have noticed is that labor costs in a pit wash system strongly correlates with the amount of water used. I worked with a rug washer in California who was under water restrictions. He changed to our pre-spray with less foam resulting in better cleaning, less water, and less labor.
Remember, Centrum Force sells a few specialty products too. So I am a vendor. The chemistry we offer is packaged in concentrate to save the consumer money. It works as described. We are into time saving objectives both with chemistry (Even though it might represent only 3-5% of an operations expense) and equipment. We all know that chemistry only works if it is target specific, on a molecular level, and makes contact with the subject being addressed. It's my belief, concerning the rub expressed earlier in this thread stems from how products are featured and sold. You, I and others have seen on social media and on-location at various rug shows how gallons of product are sold and thereafter go down the drain in a wash floor or pit environment without hitting the rug. A salesman says, 'if this doesn't work, pour on more'. When that doesn't work, then he says, 'buy this other item and try it.' Added pain and suffering occurs when the consumer is faulted for not using enough of the salesman's product to get the desired results. Then he is shamed to buy and use other products. The buying frenzy is due to vulnerability, stemming from lack of knowledge and experience, while in crisis mode with a bleeding rug. Now in panic mode, this one reaches for anything. It would be good to know what is needed in each circumstance and remove the mystery. Instructors and seasoned cleaners can help. (Plug for ARCS Event and Rug Summit 12 starting the week of October 15)

Concerning your equipment metaphor: The fact MOR Time Saving Equipment has been the brand slogan for decades proves it's point when owners spend hundreds of thousands of dollars setting up an automated rug plant to save time and money. Or, in the smaller operation, an owner increases his capacity or even cuts staff by making a one time purchase of a centrifuge. An expense equivalent to one years wage. Yet that machine is there for the duration of the company, years of service, without taken time off for maternity leave, vacations, calling in sick or late or needing a medical compensation package either. Is it expensive when put into that perspective alone?

Just some thoughts to contemplate.
 
#33
Personally, all are needed. Chemical, labor, space, equipment. All have strengths and all have weaknesses. Balanced training from different sources allow a cleaners process to become his own for his unique demographic. Frankly, the chemical salesperson described in your first paragraph is not anyone that I know in the rug trade. There are a lot of great rug trainers out there who have different perspectives that deserved to be heard. Of course, most of my time is spent in the lab and not spent in the field anymore. Maybe if I retire from the lab world, I will work part time selling and cleaning rugs somewhere as it is part of whom I am.
 
#34
Chemicals may be a small percentage of the actual cost of cleaning a rug - labor and overhead being more significant - but it's still a cost to be reckoned with. A more important issue is the wasteful expenditure of time and labor on proprietary solutions that don't produce the results they promise. The reports of cleaners standing around for hours applying 'anti-dye' to rugs, waiting for the 'excess dye' to come out, are an indictment of the folks who peddle this foolishness. If the guys who sold these chemicals actually washed rugs, and ran successful wash plants, they would't buy this crap either.
 
#35
The reports of cleaners standing around for hours applying 'anti-dye' to rugs, waiting for the 'excess dye' to come out, are an indictment of the folks who peddle this foolishness. If the guys who sold these chemicals actually washed rugs, and ran successful wash plants, they would't buy this crap either.
It's mostly just "fear" based marketing...."they" blow the potential problems out of proportion, in a multitude of forums and ways, then are standing right there to sell you the "solution". I wonder if most of the buyers of anti-dye and related products have ever washed a rug with dye migration without this stuff. Most of the time color will not set back into the surrounding, lighter colored fibers if proper wash/extraction related procedures are followed.

I've never doubted if this class of chemicals actually works, I'm sure it does, the science makes sense. But for the way my mind works, I'd like to work smarter...not harder (or less efficient, more expensive, etc.) and it seems to me that learning from the true "experts" in this field you find that honing in on a certain set of skills, and practicing those, you can become not only more knowledgeable, efficient, and profitable but truly more confident. The "fear" that a lot of folks have starting out can begin to fade.

With that said, there is a place and a time for use of these chemicals, like Robert stated earlier, mainly with intro level cleaners. Once confidence and skill levels increase these kinds of chemicals will become less and less necessary to produce quality results.
However, it seems that the "fear" mongering continues even with some of these users gaining the skills and confidence necessary to move away from these products. There in lies the problem and the cyclical nature of this type of marketing and thinking, it's designed to keep people just "sick" enough to keep using the stuff. "They" would rather you didn't see the other side, where using these types of chemicals is not common.
 
#36
Both skills and proper chemistry use have to be learned. Most of us learn the hard way (in Horror) as we watch the reds or the blues creep slowly into the whites. I have been lucky enough to have made most of my serious mistakes working for other companies. I have learned a lot of the chemistry of carpet cleaning by applying it. I have never used Dye-Loc or anything like it. I am all for improved chemistry that allows me to be more successful in my cleaning. I don't buy things out of fear that I may damage something because I don't have a certain product. I buy things that I think will improve my results. We have had lots of advances in urine treatments, stain treatments and protector applications for wool rugs and they all can be beneficial. Like a lot of you here, I am always researching what other people are doing and if I can incorporate some of that into my operation and it makes me more successful, then I am already ahead of the game.
 
#42
I was thinking the same thing this weekend. Every contributer has put thought into their comments and responses, and its been kept at a professional level.
When we have people with the credentials of Robert Mann and others, including yourself, taking the time to offer their time and expertise to explain what they do and don't do, in a non bragging way, to show how they are able to accomplish things that most of us would think are impossible or at least quite difficult, it benefits us to listen. I have just a small one person operation, I clean maybe 10 rugs per week in my overcrowded, junked up shop but if I want to expand, which I will eventually, I have a vast amount of knowledge pertaining to equipment, methods, chemistry, staff training all at my fingertips. I have lots of ideas on how I want to expand and maybe this summer, I will put some of them to work. Many thanks to the guys who are willing to take the time to help us poor rug suckers out.
 
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