Dye Loc vs ?

#1
We have used Dye Loc with rather good success for "dye stabilizing" since we started cleaning rugs. Though expensive, the dilution ratio is very good. With that said, Dye Loc has a PH of 7.5, and the normal "dye stabilizing" solution is 1-4ph....trying to understand this better if someone can elaborate why Dye Loc and Acid are both recognized as "dye stabilizers" but the PH levels are acid and neutral

We want to purchase a large pale or drum of something that compares to Dye Loc, but still want to understand why the substantial difference in PH levels for the two products.
 

T Monahan

Supportive Member
#2
We have used Dye Loc with rather good success for "dye stabilizing" since we started cleaning rugs. Though expensive, the dilution ratio is very good. With that said, Dye Loc has a PH of 7.5, and the normal "dye stabilizing" solution is 1-4ph....trying to understand this better if someone can elaborate why Dye Loc and Acid are both recognized as "dye stabilizers" but the PH levels are acid and neutral

We want to purchase a large pale or drum of something that compares to Dye Loc, but still want to understand why the substantial difference in PH levels for the two products.
Why not ask for the scientific explanation from the source of "Dye Loc"?

I scratch my head often about what is said in the rug washing arena. The name implies, or is suggestive of an objective realized, but in reality, may do something different all together. When you find the official answer, please post it.
 
#3
https://interlinksupply.com/index.php?item_num=CR14GL

This a pretty thorough explanation. Make sure that you scroll to the bottom and watch the video. Dye Loc is a special polymer ( it works in the neutral zone of pH) that attaches itself to the dyes. It does not prevent the loose dyes from leaving the fiber, but works to keep them from bonding to other fibers, so that they can be removed through extraction.

We have added it to Maxim Advanced for Upholstery to limit bleeding when applying a water-based protector. Dye Loc is strongly cationic and is not compatible with most products used to clean wool. Take my word for it as it immediately curdles with an anionic to create a sticky mess that is difficult to remove from even a hard surface let alone a soft surface. The Maxim Advanced for Upholstery is slightly cationic. This is one reason our instructions insist not to mix it directly with any product. Personally, I prefer to use it as an extraction agent so the loose dyes are thoroughly and quickly removed from rugs and upholstery. Our instructions on the label support that method.
 
#4
Save your money, don't buy that drum, and go spend it on a class to see how plenty of rug washers, who wash more rugs than we could imagine every day, never use that stuff.

It's a waste of money and time in an actual rug washing plant.

Just don't go to one of those classes put on by the morons in the Rug Room, they just want you to buy drum after drum of those Chemax chemicals.
 
#12
There are many ways to accomplish various tasks. In my opinion, adding extraction at critical points during your process really helps to limit dye bleed. Dye Loc works better with extraction and I imagine other chemicals do as well. Extraction removes loose dye more efficiently and quickly than a squeegee.
 
#14
Tom Forsythe makes a good point. Extraction really does limit/eliminate dye bleed if done quickly and efficiently at critical points in the wash process. This requires wringers and centrifuges. Vacuum suction and compressed air work just fine, but are impossibly inefficient unless you are washing a small number of rugs a day. Even then, there might be better ways to spend your time. We wash a lot of rugs every day, and a minimum of 40-50 Navajo rugs a week. We use none of the commercially prepared 'dye stabilizers', 'dye releasers', 'anti-dye' etc. products, and never have.

The problem with the marketing of many products today is that it targets the intro level cleaner; the operator with less experience and training, less equipment, less confidence. Having been sold on an expensive and cumbersome product line of 'essential' chemicals, the cleaner may slowly discover that advances in skill and confidence have brought them to a point where cleaning volume goes up, and the need for intro level process and chemicals goes down. Most marketing programs seem to ignore this fact. No surprise, I suppose; who would enter a market with a slogan that announced you'd probably want to graduate from a product as soon as you discovered it was of limited efficacy? Instead, 'echo chamber' style marketing stresses the essential nature of the goods being sold - no matter what, no discussion - often to a point where you wonder if they are about to start passing out the purple Kool-aid.
 
#15
Tom Forsythe makes a good point. Extraction really does limit/eliminate dye bleed if done quickly and efficiently at critical points in the wash process. This requires wringers and centrifuges. Vacuum suction and compressed air work just fine, but are impossibly inefficient unless you are washing a small number of rugs a day. Even then, there might be better ways to spend your time. We wash a lot of rugs every day, and a minimum of 40-50 Navajo rugs a week. We use none of the commercially prepared 'dye stabilizers', 'dye releasers', 'anti-dye' etc. products, and never have.

The problem with the marketing of many products today is that it targets the intro level cleaner; the operator with less experience and training, less equipment, less confidence. Having been sold on an expensive and cumbersome product line of 'essential' chemicals, the cleaner may slowly discover that advances in skill and confidence have brought them to a point where cleaning volume goes up, and the need for intro level process and chemicals goes down. Most marketing programs seem to ignore this fact. No surprise, I suppose; who would enter a market with a slogan that announced you'd probably want to graduate from a product as soon as you discovered it was of limited efficacy? Instead, 'echo chamber' style marketing stresses the essential nature of the goods being sold - no matter what, no discussion - often to a point where you wonder if they are about to start passing out the purple Kool-aid.
Hi Bob,
I was taught to let it bleed and then correct. What is meant by that is if you extract incorrectly or at the wrong time, bleeding will still occur and possibly be worse and harder to remove. Since dyes and rugs and situations vary so greatly it is best to be well versed in many corrective procedures.
Or I could be totally wrong.
 

scottw

Supportive Member
#16
Many (not all) the dyes used for rugs are acid dyes and are more stable in an acid environment. Acetic acid has long been used to help stabilize dyes during washing. Stabilize does not mean prevent them from ever running or bleeding, just make that less likely.

Dyes can be fugitive for several reasons, their may be excess dyes present, high alkaline cleaning agents may induce dyes to run and those are just the tip of the iceberg.

When Dye-Loc is used in a wash process, the pH of the Dye-Loc has little to do with the results. Other cleaning agents may be present that influence the pH more so than the Dye-Loc.

Multiple methods to reduce bleeding may be compatible. You can use an acid to stabilize the dyes. You can use Dye-Loc to keep fugitive dyes in solution and less likely to be deposited on fibers where you don't want them. Another key is to keep the water moving. Some rug plants use a slanted floor or another process that keeps water with any dye present moving off the rug and replacing it with fresh water.

Extraction at the right time also helps.

More experienced rug washers like Robert Mann have their preferred methods. But, a novice cleaner may feel more comfortable using every available avenue to reduce the chances of bleeding.

BTW - Doug Heiferman, Joe Roberts and I will be teaching a rug washing class in Austin Texas May 22nd - 24th. All the methods mentioned here will be tried by students in the class. Thanks to Robert Mann who allowed our students to tour his facility when we held this class in Denver a couple years ago.
 
#17
I watched a video of a rug washing operation where they were using a fire hose to rinse the rug on a slanted floor. It was a bleeder and you could see the color in the run off water. They rinsed it until it stopped bleeding, then washed it some type of soap and a scrubber, then rinsed thoroughly and put it in a centrifuge. When they took it out to hang, there was no dye bleed. All the excess dye had been rinsed out. Very impressive for a rug hack like me to watch. I just did a small bleeder like that the other day. I don't have a rug pit yet so I did it on my slanted concrete driveway. Heavily contaminated with urine. I used my garden hose to rinse and flush the rug, then scrubbed and cleaned it. Extracted with the zipper until no more moisture appearing in the tube and hung to dry. No dye bleed or shrinkage and the urine odor is gone. I used to be afraid to get a rug that wet but sometimes, not getting it wet enough is what will cause a dye bleed.
 
#18
There are basic principles that all rug washers should follow. The available equipment will change your methods. Most cleaners who wash rugs do not have the market in their town to own $500,000 of rug washing equipment. Name the rich cities in the country and there will be rug washers with enough volume to support that expensive equipment. Those who follow basic principles can clean rugs in their market, but have to rely on chemistry more than equipment. A carpet cleaner with a portable relies more on chemistry than when he owns a truckmount. Someone once asked me what was my favorite truckmount. I answered that I do not like truckmounts as I like to see my chemistry do the cleaning. The quality of your equipment and amount of experience unfortunately (from my perspective) reduces your reliance on chemistry.
 

T Monahan

Supportive Member
#19
Tom Forsythe makes a good point. Extraction really does limit/eliminate dye bleed if done quickly and efficiently at critical points in the wash process. This requires wringers and centrifuges. Vacuum suction and compressed air work just fine, but are impossibly inefficient unless you are washing a small number of rugs a day. Even then, there might be better ways to spend your time. We wash a lot of rugs every day, and a minimum of 40-50 Navajo rugs a week. We use none of the commercially prepared 'dye stabilizers', 'dye releasers', 'anti-dye' etc. products, and never have.

The problem with the marketing of many products today is that it targets the intro level cleaner; the operator with less experience and training, less equipment, less confidence. Having been sold on an expensive and cumbersome product line of 'essential' chemicals, the cleaner may slowly discover that advances in skill and confidence have brought them to a point where cleaning volume goes up, and the need for intro level process and chemicals goes down. Most marketing programs seem to ignore this fact. No surprise, I suppose; who would enter a market with a slogan that announced you'd probably want to graduate from a product as soon as you discovered it was of limited efficacy? Instead, 'echo chamber' style marketing stresses the essential nature of the goods being sold - no matter what, no discussion - often to a point where you wonder if they are about to start passing out the purple Kool-aid.
Mr. Mann,

As I stated in another post on this subject, Centrum Force® wants to distance themselves from "voo-doo science" and we are transparent about all our products. It is better to discuss how it works so expectations do not exceed reality.

Let me personally go on record about a product Centrum Force® promotes for their Wash Tub users, namely Secret Sauce. It is an additive to be introduced into the contained water vessel of the Wash Tub. It is not meant to be splashed on rugs on the floor and rinsed down the drain.

Secret Sauce was initially intended to be used in our Wash Tub application for dye management when rugs release dyes during the washing process. We did not sell to the public for years, but rather we confined sales only to Wash Tub owners. The many Wash Tub users have appreciated that unique circumstance for nearly 10 years now. We never said, nor believe, that it locks dyes on the textile.

Using it in a 1200 gallon paddle wheel wash tub necessitates that it must be used as directed to realize its full objective. The objective is managing and preventing the staining of direct dyes or reactive dyes or re-deposit loose dyes during the wash while inside the Wash Tub. This additive especially has value when multiple textile pieces are being washed together as often is the case with Centrum Force® Wash Tub users. Think of it as a binder or suspending agent to capture loose dyes.

The key to Secret Sauce is this fact: It has elements of a water-soluble polymer and binding agents.

Note: It is nonionic and has a ph of 7 undiluted. It has been tested by WoolSafe® and received their seal of approval.

Of further note: Conventional cleaning agents, detergents and wetting agents do not affect its desired performance. That is why we use our proprietary product known as Knock-Out as our preferred cleaning agent with it in the Wash Tub. Knock-Out is a plant based Colloidal Micelle cleaning product formulated to wash rugs specifically as we suggest. (Incidentally, it makes a wonderful, non scented laundry cleaner for use on clothes in your washing machine at home. It only requires about ½ oz of concentrate for each wash load provided you are using the newer type of water efficient washing machine)

Secret Sauce and Knock-out, are all WoolSafe® Approved.

 
#20
Ron K. there are washers who are skilled at stripping who allow rugs to bleed, and then 'fix them later'. Never seemed like sensible wash practice to me. It's risky and requires unnecessary extra effort. There are a lot of different ways to deal with excess dye on the wash floor as Scott Warrington points out. Refining a range of skills is the key.

Tom Forsythe, I'm glad you agree that equipment and experience can reduce a washers reliance on chemistry, but in fact we wouldn't make it through a single day without the chemicals we employ. I started out in the washing business long before most of the proprietary formulations popular today were available. You bought detergent, bleach, stripper, acids, and a few other things and mixed it all up yourself. It's mostly what we still do today, though we have found a few really good 'patent' products that we use regularly. The objective at our plant is to use the least amount of chemistry necessary to get the job done. Rinsing excess chemicals out of rugs is a waste of resources. It's the water that does most of the work anyway.

Tom Monahan, I am a real fan of your wash tub; we own one and use it every day. We do not however use it with the chemistry you supply. I am sure Centrum chemistry has been a great success for the large number of users who do employ it on a daily basis. My approach to using the wash tub is largely based on my experience using similar equipment in rug production wash houses overseas. In fact I still use some of the formulations we worked out in Turkey 25 years ago. We are also very careful about the mix of rugs in the tank. Knowing what is stable, and what isn't, is a big help. In the new plant we are building we'll have nearly unlimited supplies of hot water available which I intend to use in the wash tub. Hot water makes a huge difference in cleaning and allows even lower concentrations of cleaning chemistry to be used.
 

T Monahan

Supportive Member
#22
Robert Mann has experience that is second to none of anyone I know in the industry when it comes to textile washing and repairing. It would be hard to duplicate what he does just starting out, or even after many years. There is no substitute for experience on the floor. However, after having said that, one could get a glimpse of what he does and ask him why he does so. How? The week of October 15th at his new place. Rug Summit by Centrum Force will be had on Wednesday and Thursday. Friday is an ARCS Skill Day on the wash floor. Hands-on activity will be had on Saturday working right beside his staff. More information will be posted on all these special events along with registration on ARCS and Centrum Force websites for each respective event. I will be there naturally also. Seating is limited to about 150. Mark it on your calendar now.
 
#25
This has been a great post!! Mikey has brought up an interesting point. There is average, good, better and best cleaning. No one argues which is the best cleaning. However, the synthetic area rug market is growing and most people I know do not want to pay for a cleaning that costs as much as the rug itself. In a lot of markets, there is not enough rugs to only do the best rug cleaning and be profitable enough to only be a rug washer. Salt Lake City is one of those marginal markets, even though we have an NBA franchise. As a rug washer in these type of markets, I believe you need to have different methods to provide different price points for the type of rugs available for your service. Every cleaner needs to decide what type of services you are going to provide for your market. You need to be trained to do the best cleaning, but it is no sin to do encapsulation cleaning if that is what the customer can afford or justify based on the cost of the rug.

From a rug owner's (lover's) perspective, I believe any cleaning is better than no cleaning. I have always cleaned my rugs, with a few notable exceptions. Vacuuming is something I enjoy doing every week on my rugs and should be done thoroughly before any type of cleaning.. When we get a good snowfall, I love taking some of the rugs outside to lay face down on the snow. There is more benefit to this when you live in a dry climate. My favorite way of cleaning my rugs is to encapsulate them with a fortified acid dye resistor formula. I have extracted them many times over the years. Living in Utah in a fenced back yard where drying in no issue, I have hosed them down after pre-spraying both sides. We did a class in Salt Lake a few years ago, where we thoroughly pit washed one of my favorite rugs. It looked great. However, I decided not to tell my wife and kids about how it was cleaned. They did not comment about how clean it looked. This taught me that a lot of owners value clean but are not able to observe or perceive the level of clean.

If you live in an area where there is enough business to be a rug washer full time using best methods and practices, then be thankful. However, a lot of cleaners do not live in such an area and have to decide where they draw the line on the services they offer. We had a cleaner come from rural Wyoming to attend our oriental rug class in Salt Lake a few years ago. His goal was to learn enough about rugs so that he could extract them safely and provide convenience and service to some of his customers. We all have to decide our concept of customer service. Personally, I am not going to condemn that cleaner in Wyoming.
 
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