HWE vs Padding - Pricing

[Ron Werner]

Ok, in the FemaleTech thread, Dolly posted she had done " one job and charged 4500.00 and it took only 9 hours with a helper" ; doing 30G in a month.

Also, look at the comparison:
http://ccsop.com/index.php?url_channel_ ... &well_id=2

I don't think its that accurate. TM's cost a whole lot more to operate than what he listed.

Having said this, why are HWE companies still charging 20 cents/sf ?! HWE removes the soil and padders can get $500/hr spreading it around and encapping it so the carpet looks clean.
HWE is more labour intensive, more technical, less forgiving, more investment-both equipment and training. Yet it seems to get such a bad rap due to the B&S cleaners.

How do we break out this?? I charge 0.55/sf, I'd have to clean 1000sf/hr! If I did that I wouldn't be "cleaning" the carpet.

 

[Jack May]

Ron,

I offer both and charge 1 price only. I don't allow my costs to dictate but rather the job needs.

I tend to think on the roaundabout I'll be right. Ocassionally you'll get a job that you need to do both to get it right others a light encap and you're done.

Yes I do vary according to size or soiling but still the same rate and do what's needed.

Before encap, I used to offer two levels of clean. Basically the primary difference was pre scrub or not. What I found was the people that didn't really need it went for it and the people that I had to throw everything I had at the carpet to get a half decent result declined the extra service

As a result of that, I decided to offer 1 service... clean carpet. Yes I pre price most over the phone with about 3-5 simple questions and then provide AN ESTIMATE based on their description. If when I get on site, it's different, then the price is changed accordingly.

I then look at the job and decide what step(s) are necessary to provide clean carpet. I don't do much encap in homes as I feel it's best suited to comm maint situation. However, when requested, I'll offer a low moisture service (if it'll meet expections)

Hope that makes sense...

John

 

[alazo1]

That girl's got talent is all I can say.

Albert

 

[Derek]

i'd reply Ron, but your post is full of so many inaccuracies that i wont waste my time.

learn what OP / padding does and doesn't do is all i'll say.

for instance, you said, "HWE removes the soil and padders can get $500/hr spreading it around and encapping it "

:shock:

- they both extract the soil via different means.

- are you saying encapping = padding?

are you then saying padders are B&S'ers? or that there are HWE AND VLM B&S'ers out there?

there are many efficient ways to CC than just HWE ...even the forum admin knows that.


thanx --- Derek.

 

[XTREME1]

I just bought an OP machine today just to add that to the tool box. One thing I learned from scrubbing every carpet is how much better it looks just after the scrub I bet it looks just as good or even better if that were the last cleaner on it instead of prespray. Unfortunately I tried to buy one from John G but he wouldn't sell to a foul mouthed punk like me

 

[Blue Monarch]

What'd you buy Greg?

 

[XTREME1]

a used 17inch brute but now I need the best juice and pads.

 

[John G]

What a dork Greg, you didn't try to buy anything and you know it, you are so full of crap!

 

[Blue Monarch]

That's kind of what figured John.

 

[XTREME1]

you want the receipt, I didn't try and buy from you and realized just now it was a machine from CCS. But I own every method possible except cimex and that is soon. Sorry for cobering my bases If I knew it was Johns machine I wouldn't have bought it. We will know in a few days about its performance

 

[orbitalclean]

if HWE is in fact more labor intensive i am truly sticking with vlm, the customers love it and i am getting good with it

 

[Jimmy L]

Cimex is NOT a method.

 

[orbitalclean]

the results speak for themselves

cimex would be a major upgrade for me i am just using a jiggler

i do think hwe can be faster at times but i dont have direct experience, just knowledge from the board

 

[hogjowl]

Good grief. This whole DAT stated with a couple of false premises, and then the ball took off rolling with a few more biased responders.

The truth , as far as I am concerned, is both HWE or Padding can be successful in almost every environment and application if used by experienced people. Most of the time, inexperience is the reason for a failure. However, each has it's place and areas of optimal application.

I sure wouldn't want to have to pad a trashed out olefin berber in a rental, but would likewise hate to HWE a polyester cut pile in the room across the hall. Having both methods sure makes my life easier.

If you have to compete in a competitive, price driven market, then padding is not the way to success, but if you operate in a high end, results driven market, then padding can be a great means to success.

I have a good friend who recently started a carpet cleaning company. My recommendation to him was to go into it padding and target his market. He did, and is off to a great start. His market is huge, and his success is not price driven, so I fully expect he will be gaining top dollar for his efforts in very little time, and will fill a niche needed for his market. If he were starting out in another town, with different market dynamics, I may have advised him to go with HWE.

 

[Ron Werner]

i'd reply Ron, but your post is full of so many inaccuracies that i wont waste my time.

learn what OP / padding does and doesn't do is all i'll say.

for instance, you said, "HWE removes the soil and padders can get $500/hr spreading it around and encapping it "

:shock:

- they both extract the soil via different means.

- are you saying encapping = padding?

are you then saying padders are B&S'ers? or that there are HWE AND VLM B&S'ers out there?

there are many efficient ways to CC than just HWE ...even the forum admin knows that.


thanx --- Derek.

Hey, don't think of me as some newbie that just got in the industry. You waste my time having to explain to you what you should have learned in a class or even reasoned out by observation.
I've seen ALL the systems in action. I was at the rink at MF. I can see what's happening in the processes. It doesn't take a scientist to figure out what's going on, even though I have a science degree.

Bonnet cleaning extracts??? Come on. It removes "some" soil. Mostly it rearranges the soil. The cotton pad (geesh-watch the Teri-Towel commandments or any of the other vids on Youtube) absorbs as much as it can and then its rearranging. ALL the soil certaining doesn't get caught up in that towel!! It's still in the carpet.

Encapping: its breaking soil off the fibres and encaps it in whatever soln is being used leaving it there to be vacuumed up later-hopefully.

Even HOST leaves a ton of soil, not to mention its own cleaning powder, still in the carpet.

Soil is just rearranged so that it is not visible anymore, thus "appearing" clean.

The ONLY method that truely extracts is HWE, when performed properly, but there are trade offs, drying time is one of them. You think that guys intentionally go out spending 10's of 1000's of $'s more just to clean a carpet as good as something they could have bought for 5000 and have a fraction of the operating costs, a fraction of the equipment challenges, etc etc, do you??

I am WELL aware of the capabilities and limitations of every method. In some instances, OP/encapping IS the best method. In others, it does the job adequately.

There are a lot more B&S HWE companies than there are any other method. AS for this post, I wasn't calling anyone a B&Ser, I don't think one could exist on this board unless they had REALLY thick skin.

All I was saying is that if Dolly can get $500/hr for her work (kudos to her), which I am sure is very professional and leaves her clients very satisfied, then someone with HWE should be able to get at least that or more considering the extra expenses and risks involved.
But HWE, to do it right, takes more time and most people don't want to pay for those extra hours. Hec, most HWE cleaners don't even want to take the extra time! And we can't "clean" a carpet and make a profit at 0.15/sf nor can HWE "clean" at 1000sf/hr.

BTW, are you prevacuuming thoroughly before you put your pad to the floor? You can't put in ALL the steps and clean THAT fast, unless you have 2 or more people, but then your profit shrinks as well, so you better be getting $500/hr. Go for it!

 

[orbitalclean]

padding is the best for all situations and HWE as you call it is just smoke and mirrors and a complete con put onto the american people by the US government and its forces and the powers that be.

 

[hogjowl]

When did the IICRC become an American Government organization?

 

[John G]

I am WELL aware of the capabilities and limitations of every method.

Your statements don't back that up at all Ron.

 

[orbitalclean]

When did the IICRC become an American Government organization?

i guess they are not but they are "controlled" by them it is a conspiracy

 

[orbitalclean]

besides that i heard the IICRC will be phasing out the HWE department of the facility to replace it with op

it will be all op by sometime next year, mark this thread

 

[steve frasier]

HWE can easily rinse a carpet cleaner better then OP can but some times doesn't affect the appearance of pile as well as OP

if a padder actually stayed around long enough to get out as much dirt as HWE did then the method would be as much or more labor/time intensive then HWE and you still have the time and water it takes to wash the pads

the pads aren't cheap either and are never the same after one use

I try to charge the same price but if I can get a maintenance package out of the deal then I will price OP cheaper to make the over all deal look better because I know the HWE cleaning will go a lot faster

 

[Ron Werner]

I am WELL aware of the capabilities and limitations of every method.

Your statements don't back that up at all Ron.

Go ahead and prove me wrong.

 

[Tile Nerd]

Ron Werner

I used to think like you and very narrow minded about it like you. I used to call them "diaper wipers." I have since come around. I have gone to some OP job sites with my clients and am amazed at what padcapping will do. Not only the immediate results were impressive but the cleaning seems to last as long, if not longer then HWE.

To you die hard HWE'ers I say, don't miss the boat. If you are not careful, it will be too late and you will lose business. Then science with encapping is getting very impressive.

Why not target 2 markets?

 

[Derek]

John, he was at MF and saw padding in action...dont question his knowledge of it! he's been in the industry a long time, who are we to criticize :shock:

i've never made close to $500 / hour...not even half that much. to any CC'er who can make $500 - $1000 / hour, good on ya's...i love it.

yes i pre-vac every job now that i use VLM only (but have been tempted to skip it...tonight in fact...but i caved), although it should be a prerequisite for any method.

sorry to harass ya Ron, but your statements in your original post are typical of someone who doesn't know much about OP/padding (other than seeing it in action)

have a great weekend :!:

thanx --- Derek.

 

[John G]

LOL Derek... right on.


Ron, I do, EVERYDAY...

 

[Mike Draper]

I think we can all see who watches to many Michael More-on movies!! Do you wash your clothes in the washer? Of course you do! Why, because the DRYYYYYY-CLEANERS will never get your clothes as clean as the hot water washing machine will.

 

[Out of Character - 0]

Some of you speak of visual results while some of you speak of soil removal, different subject matter.

Has anyone done a serious soil removal test, other than visual? I'd guess HWE to be the winner even if padding was done at less sqft per hour with a post vac. Someone prove me wrong.

Encap does and should stay clean looking longer. As the plastic wears away so does the dirt that stuck to it while it lived on the fiber. That should prove that the stuff isn't completely removed in the post vacuum. Encap solutions leave a different type of soil (foreign matter) in the carpet as well as what it doesn't remove. I wouldn't want the chemical soil residue left in my home or office, but I care about chemicals more than most.

FYI we do use encap products and love them, padding makes up a good portion of our business.

If someone wanted maximum soil removal and the longest lasting appearance the solution would be to pre-vac, hwe, encap, post vac.
I'd still recommend protector after the hwe.

 

[Ron Werner]

When I have more room in a truck for an OP machine, perhaps I'll buy one to cover those jobs where HWE is not practical. I know I bid one commercial job at 0.40/sf, would have required 400-500' of hose and over 12 hrs to clean the way I know to get it "clean", but an OPer/Encap process could do the work in ~5hrs and they'd be happy. They still balked at 40 cents, so would I do it for less the other method?

What's there to know about OP. I just watched a vid on Youtube. Kind of explains it all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VU7QXYC ... re=related
a double OP machine. He did a great job. Looks quite clean. Very fast. But is it "clean"??

Its like the joke:
I was visiting my grandpa's farm. That night the plates looked a little dirty and I asked about it. Grandpa said it was as clean as cold water could get them.
The next morning, the plates looked cleaner but still dirty. He said the same thing, they were as clean as cold water could get them.
Went outside and he yelled, Come here Cold Water, and the farm dog came trotting over.

 

[Mikey P]

I have 3 OP machines, a Cimex, a 175, a CRB and a god damn Vortex and let me tell you.....



Every machine/method has it's place and any real dedicated cleaning professional should have have all of the above.









One OP and any decent TM will suffice though.

 

[WISE]

Here is what we have and which is favored from a personal preference standpoint.

Hydramaster Boxxer 421--Love this TM.
Prochem Legend

Cimex
Brute 17"
2 175's
Host Freestyle
Steamin Demon 20"
and a God forsaken portable.

Personally, gimme the Cimex, a 175, and the Boxxer and I am good to go.

The Brute is growing on me, but I still think it would make a better boat anchor. I'm getting better with it (timewise)...however, my techs hate it.

But prescrub with a Cimex, HWE, then post bonnet w/ a lil encap with the 175 is a hard system to beat. <--We rarely do that on residential--particuarly a furnished home.



Anyway, my .02
WISE