A tuff call...

[Jack May]

Here's the deal. The client bought her whole house lot of carpet. The estimator had drawn the plan incorrectly so when the layer 'shop cut' the roll, he had a huge gap in the entrance way that he had to fill with a seam going both directions. The cross seam really stood out.

The layer finally agreed to replace the entrance/hallway complete as one single piece... only when they ordered the replacement roll, they had to settle for a different dye batch and were told thats the end of that line... no more available carpet of that type.

Whan he installed it, this is what they found. A tension issue running the complete length of the roll (approx 8 meters).

So, Feltex have sent me in with the task of finding a solution. I met onsite with both clients and the layer. THe layer had NO suggestions whatsoever and I felt he was out of his depth.

I siad I have a few options, but want to discuss with the Feltex rep, them, you guys etc before we settle on a decision.

We found a small off cut of the ridge and I brought that back with me for testing.

There is enough carpet to cut out the offending piece and put a seam in the opening but they are reluctant to do that.

Second option is for me to re tuft that ridge... no option because of how much there is I reckon.

third option which is where I'm out of my depth is "is this croppable?

That section you can see is 2-2.5 m long. There is another section in front of a hallway cupboard which isn't really noticable because it has no back lighting.

I think it's just the cream that is too high, but that could well be just because that's what's catching the light. It's 3 rows wide.

Oh yeah, the job is three hours away.

ANy suggestions from you guys?

John

 

[truckmount girl]

Why is the estimator, who is the person who made the mistake in the first place not buying the client new carpet? Why should the client have to ay good money for new carpet all over the house (this shows they expect matching, uniform carpet with appropriate seams.) and have to settle for either visible seams in high traffic areas or carpet that may not match and has issues from the get go?

This is a costly mistake for the estimator, for sure, but their liability insurance should cover it. Why is responsibility being shifted to the installer?

If I was the homeowner I'd be pushing for new carpet, from the same dyelot, with appropriate seams and equivalent or better quality than the stuff I purchased.

Take care,
Lisa

 

[joe harper]

JOHN,


Remove one of the bedroom carpets..(same dye lot)

Do a single drop in the affected area...(elimanates,head & butt seams)

Then transfer the unacceptable carpet to the bedroom..(It will not be as noticeable)

This is the installers ERROR.....

I see where the mill has NO obligation to this PROBLEM...

Have the customer AGREE to this solution & offer a SUBSTANTIAL DISCOUNT..!!!!

Otherwise This is a TOTAL LOSS...

 

[joe harper]

John,

After looking at the photo again...Even though this is not the same "dye-lot"...

The color is certainly within the 20% standard that the mills adhere to.

The "AESTHETIC" problem here is the LOCATION of the seam...!!!!!

As the Installer KNOWS..you cut-it..you own-it..."NEVER trust an estimaters LAY-OUT"

It appears that the seam is "PEEKING"...More noticable because of the lighting...

These good's...Installed in ANOTHER room...would be hardly noticed...

There is possibly another SOLUTION.??? Offer to install wood or lamanate in the hall &
bathroom... :idea: This would be an UP-GRADE to the cleint...&...a solution to the
offensive PROBLEM AREA... :!:

This has been a solution to problems that I have experianced in the PAST...
WIN-WIN for the cleint..&..the DEALER...!!!

 

[Jack May]

Lisa, the carpet is no longer made. The clients have stated a number of times that they love the carpet and don't want to choose an alternative, so they're open to all suggestions to solutions to minimise the issue. I'm not sure this is purely the estimators fault... at the end of the day, the layer CHOSE to shop cut on someone elses plan/measurements and now, like it or lump it, he owns the problem. In this case, because the new problem is a manufacturing fault, the manufacturer has got involved and sent me over to see what can be done to rectify the FAULT. I agree with you on the replacement thing though, if it was my house, I'd expect the WHOLE house replaced with an equivilent product to my liking at no cost to me.

Joe, I don't think you've picked up the fact that it's a FAULT. This is not a seam that is peaking, it is a tension FAULT from the manufacturer. There is no option to up lift and swap around with a piece from another room. The colour is close, but slightly noticable (to someone from the industry) at the hallway/bedroom doorways only. The clients don't have an issue with the slight colour/dye difference. Their issue is with the FAULT.

With my tools and skills, I actually believe on that carpet I'd be able to get an invisible seam across the opening in the just showing in the bottom of photo 2. However, the clients are very loyal to the layer who has stood by them, despite his problem initially and so how does one tell the clients, I don't think your layer will get it good enough, I want to do it.??

Prehaps some of you inspectors have experience in these issues... will a light cropping and then possibly retufting (reburling) a few tufts for any that may have suffered damage be a likely option?

I've never used a cropping machine before, but intend getting my own sooner or later. The manufacturer I believe actually have access to one anyway and previously offered to train me for their jobs.

John

 

[Harry Myers]

Sounds like the mill should replace the defected roll. If they are out of what she wanted . They should allow for another option of carpeting.

 

[harryhides]

John, here's my take for what it's worth.

I think that Joe's idea of using a bedroom carpet for this well lit area is workable.
I seriously doubt that the flaw would show much in a bedroom/
I also think that if you had enough carpet to make a perfect seam to show to the customer then they could decide based on knowledge whether to go ahead with that option.

I have "fixed" numerous seams in low level lighting situations with some color repair. Of course in this instance it would take a tan dye stick. Is there any left over flawed carpet that you could practice and demo on ? You could also test out the shearing option on a remnant if any is available. Any good sheep shears should do, don't all Kiwis have a few of those kicking around ?

 

[joe harper]

John,

This appears to be a ROW berber...It is almost impossible to get an INVISABLE seam..!!

If you are saying that the MILL is acknowledging a tufting FLAW in the goods....?

Then they will PAY for TEAR-OUT..&..RE-STALLING of comparable goods...!

The MILL will only REIMBURSE the DEALER the actual cost of the goods + freight....

The HOMEOWNER must allow the MILL to midagate there DAMAGES...by accepting a
REFUND.... or by selecting a CARPET of EQUAL QUALITY....!

IMHO...is DO NOT attempt to CORRECT this PROBLEM....!!!!!!

 

[Jack May]

Well, I've spoken extensively this afternoon to the Head rep at Feltex and we've agreed on the following plan.

I (not the layer) go in and slice and dice it. Remove the offending piece and bond in the offcut and have 1 join across the opening.

If the clients are still not happy with that result, the manufacturer will step up and replace all 30+ meters of carpets throughout the entire home.

I've yet to talk with the clients and ask them if they are happy with that course of action, but subject to them agreeing, that's what will happen.

Thanks for your imput.

John

 

[Jack May]

I'm sorry Joe, but I disagree with you.

I believe I can get an awesome join on this product.

I also am working for the MILL as a carpet rectification technician and so any risk is on them not me.

Negotiations have apparently failed between the retailer and the client and the layer is staying loyal to his customer, but in this case, the MILL wants me to conduct the rectification.

John

 

[joe harper]

John,

My post to stay away from this problem...Was that I was assuming that you were
acting as an Independant contractor...TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM... :?

If you are representing the mill as a "LAST CHANCE" solution..Then fine.."Hero or Zero"

I am sure you are a very tallented technition...BUT...If you achieve perfection in this
seam. It will "NOT" be acceptable to the homeowner..!!! They are tired of the BUCK being passed..between the Retailer ,installer, and the Mill...

This is a classic case of .."It is not MONEY...It is the PRINCIPAL." :roll:
It is "ALWAYS THE MONEY" This homeowner is going to get NEW carpet or a FULL REFUND.

If the MILL has addmitted the goods are FLAWED..?
Any other LIABILTY is MUTE... :!:

The only WINNER in this situation will be the INSTALLER...(he will be paid for a double install)

This would have never been a (PROBLEM)..If he had done his JOB...
The seam LOCATION is UNACCEPTABLE... This was a whole house INSTALL...
He should have pulled his OWN TAPE....&....Figured his OWN DROPS.... :shock:

ps I assume that the INSTALLER was hired by the Homeowner...?
If NOT..Then the DEALER should WITHHOLD his check for being STUPID...

 

[Jack May]

It really makes me laugh... some of you guys shoot off without reading the info given.

In the first post I stated I was sent in by Feltex the manufacturer.

That the manufacturer has acknowledged the fault.

I also stated that the piece in question is a different dye batch to the rest of the house.

That the clients actually LOVE this carpet and want the problem rectified rather than trying to find another carpet style and colour that will match their decor etc.

That I also have an offcut that I was able to bring back with me for testing purposes.

anyway, On closer inspection under good direct lighting, the cream loops are too high to crop effectively. It would basically cause more damage than good and would necessitate retufting extensively.

I haven't tried dye sticks Tony, maybe that may work, I don't know in this case. Usually I find it works well for me on smaller areas.

Joe, here's a couple of photos of a join I had to correct, different product, but still a patterned loop pile product that shows the necessity of pattern matching. With the correct tools and procedure, there should be no peaking and I believe I should be able to get a tight join. Maybe I might have to eat my words, but I do feel confident at this stage. I have the off cut so I may just do a test join before I go out. It is not an off set cam shift style carpet. The lines are stright so shouldn't be a problem if that's what you were referring to.

Problem join with pattern mis match and peaking.

Rectified.

John

John

 

[joe harper]

john,

FAULT=flaw
JOIN =seam
METERS=sqare yards
RETAILER=dealer
COLURE=color
OFFCUT=remnant
DYE BATCH=dye lot
RECTIFACATION= rectum-as-fast-as you-can..???????

Sorry for asking you to repeat some of the info.. :roll:


I AM NOT A TRANSLATOR..... :?

I adjusted CLAIMS for SHAW INDUSTRIES for 7 YEARS.."Just sounding off" :roll:

I gave you the BEST solution...I Have predicted the OUTCOME..."Hope I Helped" :?:


The Lady is BS on the COLOR AVAILIBILTY......MOST POPULAR COLOR MADE..... :roll:


ta ta for now

 

[Jack May]

Joe, my post was tongue in cheek...

But, in your 7 years of claims adjusting for shaw (thats 4 more than me and I respect experience) did you NEVER rectify a fault? Do you guys always replace anything that has a fault?

I agreed with Lisa above, that replacement of the entire house is the BEST option... as we know, Mills don't always see eye to eye with the consumer. What's best in their eyes is usually the path of least cost. We're agreed on that. In this case, I beleive the clients are being honest about the not wanting the carpet replaced... if that is true, then the best option at this stage is to rectify.

I wouldn't be quite so dogmatic on the outcome. If I had to pick it now, I'd say this claim will settle with them having the section replaced and possibly a cash settlement. They were already offered a cash settlement by the retailer and declined it as they really want the carpet rectified not a cheaper bill.

I honestly don't know who the layer was employed by. All I know is that he is showing a care about his work and client relationship (maybe too late, the horse has bolted) that isn't too frequent in our industry.

I'm guessing your Yanks have a totally different mentality to us guys this side of the globe.

John

 

[joe harper]

John,

Your skills were NEVER in question... :!:

Unless the goods in question is WOOL... :?: This is NOT that expensive Carpet... :!:
MY POINT IS......If the MILL has conclude that the ORIGINAL goods are FLAWED..!!!!!!
Then ALL other claims are MUTE..."Everyone else is out of the LOOP..."

YES..The MILL will try to MIDAGATE there damages....BUT....Surely you agree that the INSTALLER is the REAL PROBLEM here...His "join" seems to be with-in industry standards..
But his Lay-out is unacceptable..."If he knew he was going to be SHORT....He should have
done all his FILL seams..in another inconspicuous area..!"
A GOOD INSTALLER..WOULD HAVE NOTICED THE FLAW IN HIS "1st" SEAM...!!!!!!!

I would NEVER try to Repair the flaw in that HALLWAY...I would Remove a SALVAGE peice
from ANOTHER room...The SEAM should NEVER be in that HIGH TRAFFIC AREA...Do your
MAJIC in another area of the home..."IMO..."

I am sure that you EXPLAINED...That if the homeowner accept's your REPAIR & any
cash settlement...That the MILL will have NO FUTHER liabilty to this peice of CARPET...
Warrenty is VOID..NO wear warranty...Stain warranty...Delamination warranty..ect.......

The way we do it "HERE" is.....Inform the Homeowner of all the Ramafications of accepting
any type of SETTLEMENT...

1. If the Homeowner accept's your repair..(They still have a FLAWED rug & No warranty)
2. If the Homeowner doesn't accept the repair..(The MILL now has your FEE + replacement)
3. The only WINNER IS YOU... :shock:

 

[Harry Myers]

I have worked with that product many times . John is very capable as we know. yes it is a felted wool berber product. BUT it is not top quality at least in that roll.

 

[The Great Oz]

Just a comment or two.

All that has to be done is break up this line well enough that it doesn't draw your eye.

The flaw could probably be repaired by pushing most of the high rows deeper into the backing to reduce their height to the level of the rest of the carpet. This may have to be done with a needle and cord from the back side of the carpet and then fix the tufts in place by applying a little latex to that area.

Typically when you cut the top from a loop you get cut pile that reflects light a lot differently than the loop, so you would still have a line there. You've already found that.

Given all the hullaballoo and the homeowner liking the carpet enough to accept shade differences, I find it hard to believe there isn't more of the same carpet to be had from another carpet retailer's shop, somewhere in the country. Feltex probably knows where every bit has been sent.

PS: Your homeowner would be an exceedingly rare customer in the US. People here are accustomed to getting what they ordered and no less, so flaws or dyelot changes are cause for complete replacements. Also, many times the heroic effort isn't acceptable, so experience tells many mill reps to replace first and not add to problem.

 

[joe harper]

Good post, OZ..

What about using a "SERPENTINE STRAIGHT EDGE" to break-up the seam line. "visually" ???

Then applying some LATEX seam sealer to the seam...to impeed raveling...

 

[sweendogg]

No you would be asking for way to many problems eveing thinking about serpentining that carpet. The only loop pile carpet I would consider (and recomend ) serperntinging on would be C/A Powerbond RS Backing. (I love that stuff)

 

[joe harper]

Hi Dave,

I have offered my best solution....in the earlier post...

But I do have a little story....In the early 90,s...I had a 1000 yd office job that was
a low-end SHAW berber... My installer liked to make his cuts on site...So I get a call
at the office from him. "Hey".. you need to come out here!! What he assumed was a little
"roll-crush"..turned out to be a flaw. The rows "wandered-off" almost 1 inch in the width.

Well...Shaw replaced the order... When I ordered the Pick-up..of the damaged goods.
The mill stated that if I wanted the Damaged goods..? That I was welcome to them.!!!

I kept the goods & sold them to a freind that had several rental properties...Well when
I went to inspect the Install...I was AMAZED....You could NOT find the SEAMS....!!!!!
I asked the installer what he had done to HIDE the FLAW..???

He PULL's out this 6 ft long peice of metal.."and says THIS"..."I had NEVER seen a
Serpentine Straight Edge." The job was top-notch..!!! I said to him...There is only
one PROBLEM...You know that eventually everyone of the seams will UN-RAVEL..
He said..NO they won't..!!! "I have trimmed,retufted,& seam-sealed every seam...

I BET him "Double or Nothing" on the Install...."HE WON" :shock:

 

[sweendogg]

Oh I wasn't questioning your suggestions just relating our experience as well.

Yeah we have a serpentine straight edege they still make them...

http://www.tools4flooring.com/crain-119 ... p-635.html

And It does work very well when hiding say a very dense plush or a cut pile. But on berbers.. You have to have the right type of berber to be able to accomplish this.

Similar story to you but opposite result. Another installer we knew attempted something very similar but hadn't worked with this particular berber yet. Just a nice straight loop that you could row run bring back together and never have a problem with because of the high and low loop rows. He was determined to use his serpentine because he thought it made the absolute best seam.... well on that bet we won and he bought the carpet. He didn't work for us after that.

Its all about the understanding the material... We both know most installers do not understand the material. Espeicielly when they walk in and think installing a woven wool wilton would be the same as a tufted five pick plush cute pile.

I do have to reiterate how much fun it is to install C&A. All the work is in the prep. But once you get the pret out of the way.. its just plain fun to put that stuff in.