Time to raise the bar

Ed Valentine · Nov 5, 2013

Someone on another board asked the question basically, "what is the average house" (to figure pricing).

This aspect has always bothered me to no end regarding where the "average" carpet cleaner places himself in his market place. In other words, perhaps how important he thinks he is; or isn't.

Therefore, allow me to pass along my answer:
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Here is my opinion:

1. I think that the "average" carpet cleaner lowers himself to a certain level similar to that of begging for business. They tend to cave in on pricing.

Every other service I have had experience with recently (ex: Garage Door; Heating/Cooling; Carpenters;Plumbers) all charge a $75.00 min. even if they just come out and shake your hand, you are obligated to pay that cost, and in addition, $75.00 an hour. And, this cost is non-negotiable too. Otherwise, call someone else.

2. IMHO, there is no "average" size house. For example, if you asked a Window Cleaner; "Hey give me a price on cleaning my windows". He'll always ask, "Well, how many windows do you have?" If you reply; "Oh, I don't know, but my house is an "average" size", he'd laugh and say; "That doesn't tell me very much.

Further, the Carpet Store selling carpeting would also have to know the "exact" square feet in order to quote a cost, right?

Maybe I'm off base here, however, in all my years in this business, I have witnessed the carpet cleaning industry always selling for less even when they gripe and state firmly that they are the Best in Town. Well, I say, if you believe that you are, then start acting like it and raise your level of standards which includes a decent living. Otherwise, become a Plumber.

Best;
Ed Valentine
cross-American.com

Desk Jockey · Nov 5, 2013

The other board you speak of must be full of entry level cleaners???

Being the best in town means little...whats the drop off from first to second best, third best? Its a foolish statement to make "I'm the best in town". (P.S. we are the best in town!

)

I'd say the majority here know their break even and charge enough to make a profit. How they arrive at their rate doesn't mean you're only a success if you charge by the sq/ft. Cleaners charge by the sq/ft, by the room and I've even had a local competitor that charged by the hour.

All it takes to be successful is take in more than goes out and have a revenue stream that continues to flow.

I agree a minimum should be a the least you can go out for and still make a profit. Not a give away in hopes that they will add on or with hopes of making them into a regular client.

I really don't see a problem of charging by "the average house size" IF you can do so and make a decent profit. I'll see a competitors add an calculate it and often they are cleaning for half or even less than half of our cleaning rate.

Are they foolish? Maybe but many operate out of their homes so the do have lower overhead, many use cheaper cleaning solutions, some use a portable instead of TM's other operate out of a pickup or a car, most move no furnishings.

We're offering different levels of service, not all "Carpet Cleaning" is equal. So while it may appear some of "those guys" are too cheap, I think they might be charging according to the level of service they are delivering.

There are different levels in the market, cheap guys offer less but charge less. They shouldn't charge more if they are not going to delivery any more than basic services. The more that is included in your service the better price you can command.

The guy with a nice van, nice TM using premium cleaning solutions should charge more than the guy just starting, out working a portable out of their car.

Mikey P · Nov 5, 2013

Ed does like to hang out on the sub niche forums were the more "Portable Oriented" types like to gather and wallow in their misery. I don't blame him. Sales to be made.

I've witnessed quite a few cleaners that get bummed out at seeing the success of most here.

Leads to depression.

Even with the absence of Ken, we here at MB are definitely at the top of the heap pile when it comes to a gathering of busy and successful owner ops and multi truckers

and Marty.

Desk Jockey · Nov 5, 2013

Maybe the need to listen to the "How You Can Charge More And Have Customers Practically BEGGING To Pay You!"

It worked for me. :winky:

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Ed Valentine · Nov 5, 2013

Actually, Mikey has an interesting comment here which surely has been proven in regards to (some of) those "porty" operations.

Although I have met throughout the years, many, many Operators (using portables as their primary equipment; or have switched from TM-to-porty) who were some terrific business individuals, I must admit what Mikey was referring to that there are some out there who run the standard "Hit & Run" type of services better known as; Bait & Switch. These guys are the ones who normally purchase the $300.00 Porty machine specials (used; used up) exhausted pieces of junk and go out and clean.

Therefore, yes, it is easier to get into this business using a Pail & Brush operation than to spend the money on a Vortex. It amazes me how many prospects call in who can not put $500-1000 on their credit card let alone go to the bank and qualify for a business loan, or lease. Unbelievable.

So, it's a real please to hear that the majority on this board have money in their pockets. I can hear the change jingle from here!

Thanks for the comments.

Best;
Ed Valentine

Desk Jockey · Nov 5, 2013

It amazes me how many prospects call in who can not put $500-1000 on their credit card let alone go to the bank and qualify for a business loan, or lease.

That's sad if they can't afford that little on their card, it will be an uphill struggle to build their business. Survival of the fittest is cruel but maybe best when you come to bat with so little. :neutral:

hogjowl · Nov 5, 2013

Thing is, everybody has to start somewhere.

Whether we are talking about boards or equipment.

Jim Martin · Nov 5, 2013

hogjowl said:
Thing is, everybody has to start somewhere.

Whether we are talking about boards or equipment.

Correct....but...it has been seen threw out the years.......if you start average....90% will stay that way..........

hogjowl · Nov 5, 2013

99.9% of all statistics are made up.

Desk Jockey · Nov 5, 2013

Thing is, everybody has to start somewhere.

Not true, some are under financed, under educated, unmotivated and truthfully should not start at all. They would be much better working for someone......anyone.....just as long as it's not me!

hogjowl · Nov 5, 2013

I am putting a help wanted ad on T-M-F as we speak.

With your name on it.

renegade_cowboy · Nov 5, 2013

Most carpet cleaners are O/O and starting out, I don't see anything wrong with slinging deals to get work. If you still have to sling deals after many years in business to get work then something needs to be worked on with in your company.

If the service companies you called were upstart O/O, there is a great chance they would of slang a deal to get your work. If they are already established, you will find that non negotiable be enforced more.

I do believe in comes down to confidence.. if you are talking about new upstarts, then it takes time to get that swagger and for some they never get it. Learning to be a business owner takes time, I find it best to never become complacent and always strive to be better. This is why I like Jon Dons SFS class.. it empowers a business owner and gives them direction to build off of.

Desk Jockey · Nov 5, 2013

Sweet just what I need, a fleet of fookin portables. :oldrolleyes:

Where did I put Greg's phone number in Hotlanta?

ig:

renegade_cowboy · Nov 5, 2013

Doc Holliday said:
Not true, some are under financed, under educated, unmotivated and truthfully should not start at all. They would be much better working for someone......anyone.....just as long as it's not me!

This is very true about a good percentage of upstarts.. usually it folks that worked for another company maybe a year or three and thought to themselves that they could do it and do it better. Not ever know the true cost of running a business.

Desk Jockey · Nov 5, 2013

I can see how it happens, they can be great cleaners working for others. They bring in a pocketful of money with no thought of how much of that goes to overhead and with no management skills. Add in the competitive disadvantage of operating a portable as your primary unit and they are destine for failure no matter how great a cleaner they are.

Jim Martin · Nov 5, 2013

Caduceus said:
Most carpet cleaners are O/O and starting out, I don't see anything wrong with slinging deals to get work. If you still have to sling deals after many years in business to get work then something needs to be worked on with in your company.

If the service companies you called were upstart O/O, there is a great chance they would of slang a deal to get your work. If they are already established, you will find that non negotiable be enforced more.

I do believe in comes down to confidence.. if you are talking about new upstarts, then it takes time to get that swagger and for some they never get it. Learning to be a business owner takes time, I find it best to never become complacent and always strive to be better. This is why I like Jon Dons SFS class.. it empowers a business owner and gives them direction to build off of.

I agree to a point...but here is the problem...if you start letting the price shoppers barter with you out of the starting gate...then it will always happen...sooner or later you will have to put your foot down..then what....

then you need to ask yourself if these are the kind of people that you really want as clients in the first place....after all....we run a business...and it is people that make our business..not carpet tile and UPH cleaning..but people...with out the people...we would have nothing...

So...do you want the average price shopper...or do you want good reliable people that will pay you for your services.........and for what you are worth......

renegade_cowboy · Nov 5, 2013

I guess you have to decide where that point is.. but its best to make some money vs no money at all, especially when you don't have the work coming in.

You can come up with a promotional offer that you can discount the regular price of the job, so they know what the original price was. When they call back, you can offer the same promotion until you don't need to discount to create a revenue. PLUS that promotional discount is something you can write off as an expense.

But you are right, you need to find that "point" where you don't need to do that.. Like I said if a company is still doing it after many years in business then there is something wrong with how the business is ran.

renegade_cowboy · Nov 5, 2013

Doc Holliday said:
I can see how it happens, they can be great cleaners working for others. They bring in a pocketful of money with no thought of how much of that goes to overhead and with no management skills. Add in the competitive disadvantage of operating a portable as your primary unit and they are destine for failure no matter how great a cleaner they are.

I worked for coit and SS and saw it a lot.. but most just bought used TM because they knew portys are crap to use as your only equipment.

Jim Martin · Nov 5, 2013

Caduceus said:
I guess you have to decide where that point is.. but its best to make some money vs no money at all, especially when you don't have the work coming in.

You can come up with a promotional offer that you can discount the regular price of the job, so they know what the original price was. When they call back, you can offer the same promotion until you don't need to discount to create a revenue. PLUS that promotional discount is something you can write off as an expense.

But you are right, you need to find that "point" where you don't need to do that.. Like I said if a company is still doing it after many years in business then there is something wrong with how the business is ran.

yep...but most don't even know there break even point..so there out there working and not making a dime.....some are losing money because they took a job and it is costing them...not giving them a profit....sooner or later it catches up....then there investment ends up on Craigslist...and they are out thousands of dollars....

its a vicious cycle.....and everyone of us has seen it many different times in our own towns.......just the way it is...

renegade_cowboy · Nov 5, 2013

Very true, but I think it is in all industries not just our.

The thing with being a business owner is you have to learn, learn and learn.. if you don't then those are the folks we buy discounted equipment from online because they didn't learn. Starting out I had some jobs that I lost money on, but you just learn from your mistakes and try not to repeat them. I have bought a lot of stuff from out of business CC and its the same story, they didn't understand how business operations work.

Desk Jockey · Nov 5, 2013

But you are right, you need to find that "point" where you don't need to do that.. Like I said if a company is still doing it after many years in business then there is something wrong with how the business is ran.

I think it would be tough to jump markets too. If you came in as a budget cleaner you're not going to care about a door mat, door guards or corner guards or what you (uniform) or your equipment looks like. Jump up a level and not only do you have to be a proficient cleaner but you need to look and act the part as well. Stepping up a level can be much harder than if first appears.

I agree with Brent, some of it is confidence in yourself and the product you're delivering. If you don't have confidence in what you're selling, neither will the client.

Shane Deubell · Nov 5, 2013

hogjowl said:
Thing is, everybody has to start somewhere.

Whether we are talking about boards or equipment.

Some people shouldn't even start... talking about boards or equipment.

Or at least wait until they are ready. What's wrong with a little patience?

Jim Martin · Nov 5, 2013

There is no such thing as a average carpet cleaner...you either do it or you don't..its not brain surgery or rocket science......if your reputation is you do a crappy job at cleaning carpet...then you either don't give a shit about what you do or you need to go back to the basics of learning how to tie your own shoes......

But...you are going to either be good at running a business...bad at running a business...and I don't think there is room for anything in between.....

Shane Deubell · Nov 5, 2013

I went through many ups/downs in my 20's with various schemes, been there done that have the t-shirt.

This time i saved money, built up credit, eliminated consumer debt and took the time to actually map out a business plan.
Thats what it takes IMO.

The seat of your pants with a portable in a pickup truck is destined to fail 99.9% of the time in TODAY's market. More competitive then 10 or 20 years ago, much more.

Art Kelley · Nov 5, 2013

Jim Martin said:
There is no such thing as a average carpet cleaner...you either do it or you don't..its not brain surgery or rocket science......if your reputation is you do a crappy job at cleaning carpet...then you either don't give a shit about what you do or you need to go back to the basics of learning how to tie your own shoes......

But...you are going to either be good at running a business...bad at running a business...and I don't think there is room for anything in between.....

Jim's got that right. When I wanted to start my CC business at 19 in '75 I had maybe $1000 to my name and no available credit. I couldn't get $500 or $1000 from a credit card, and I would have had a tough time buying one of Ed Valentine's machines. I bought a brand new Vac11 from Ed Vargas and he "carried the papers" for the other $1600. Times were tough and I passed out fliers by the thousands advertising five rooms for $50. The promotion worked and I did top quality work, better than anything people had ever seen especially when I combined my steam cleaner with my Clarke C-15 which cost me another $900. My girlfriend at the time was outraged I spent $900 on that machine and not on her. LOL. Oh well, I dumped her. Anyway, quite a few of my friends at that time saw my success and tried their hand at carpet cleaning. (Ed Vargas loved me for that). Eventually most failed. This business is not for everyone. The marketplace decides who will last.

ruff · Nov 5, 2013

Doc Holliday said:
Sweet just what I need, a fleet of fookin portables.

Where did I put Greg's phone number in Hotlanta? ig:

Just do what the rest of us do and click on Goog ads in Hotlanta :winky:

ruff · Nov 5, 2013

Ed Valentine said:
1. I think that the "average" carpet cleaner lowers himself to a certain level similar to that of begging for business. They tend to cave in on pricing. Every other service I have had experience with recently (ex: Garage Door; Heating/Cooling; Carpenters;Plumbers) all charge a $75.00 min. even if they just come out and shake your hand, you are obligated to pay that cost, and in addition, $75.00 an hour. And, this cost is non-negotiable too. Otherwise, call someone else.

A starting business may use a low price to get their foot in the door. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as they do quality work, to stand out from the crowd and make it clear that this is a special deal. Otherwise once they raise the prices to be profitable they may lose the client. However, when there's no money coming in, you got to do what you got to do.

2. IMHO, there is no "average" size house. For example, if you asked a Window Cleaner; "Hey give me a price on cleaning my windows". He'll always ask, "Well, how many windows do you have?" If you reply; "Oh, I don't know, but my house is an "average" size", he'd laugh and say; "That doesn't tell me very much.

Further, the Carpet Store selling carpeting would also have to know the "exact" square feet in order to quote a cost, right?

Actually, in many neighborhoods there is an average size. For example- Here in S.F. if they live in the Sunset (a specific neighborhood) . their carpet is pretty much about 600 square feet. Again, if you are referring to the whole house, very low price, that is another issue, still there are companies that do that as a business model and seem to do fine. Depends a lot on the specific business model.

Maybe I'm off base here, however, in all my years in this business, I have witnessed the carpet cleaning industry always selling for less even when they gripe and state firmly that they are the Best in Town. Well, I say, if you believe that you are, then start acting like it and raise your level of standards which includes a decent living. Otherwise, become a Plumber.

True, though the established or quality companies seem not to be much affected by it. Usually those people do not last long in business, do not provide good service. So in a sense,they help the good ones differentiate themselves.

And what's wrong with being a plumber?

steve_64 · Nov 5, 2013

Mikey P said:
Ed does like to hang out on the sub niche forums were the more "Portable Oriented" types like to gather and wallow in their misery. I don't blame him. Sales to be made.

I've witnessed quite a few cleaners that get bummed out at seeing the success of most here.

Leads to depression.

Even with the absence of Ken, we here at MB are definitely at the top of the heap pile when it comes to a gathering of busy and successful owner ops and multi truckers

and Marty.

even us lowball hacks are better here. :rockon:

honestly, i workcheap but i work hard. it makes up the difference.

i give away a lot of free work when on a job already. i have been selling protector more lately :clap:

i like what i do and how things are working out. i couldnt have planned things better.

we dont charge $75 because we arent licensed like other services are. personally i think its a good system now. you earn your way not pay a fee and pass a test.

what else was there???

steve_64 · Nov 5, 2013

Jim Martin said:
There is no such thing as a average carpet cleaner...you either do it or you don't..its not brain surgery or rocket science......if your reputation is you do a crappy job at cleaning carpet...then you either don't give a shit about what you do or you need to go back to the basics of learning how to tie your own shoes......

But...you are going to either be good at running a business...bad at running a business...and I don't think there is room for anything in between.....

i suck at running a business but my work and my personality keep me going. i keep the office stuff very simple. its not where i spend my time. but i agree it needs to get better. things will explode for me again with a good business plan.8 years and im still making it, barely but its on automatic now. answer the phone, go clean, fill out invoice and file it.get check at po box put in bank and pay the bills.

a dream and a lot of motivation is what makes it happen.

Jim, if im not mistaken you and your wife do two jobs a day right? i couldnt remember for sure but im thinking about trying that here. ive just started kicking the idea around but i would be interested in asking a few questions if thats you.

Jim Martin · Nov 6, 2013

steve rutherford said:
i suck at running a business but my work and my personality keep me going. i keep the office stuff very simple. its not where i spend my time. but i agree it needs to get better. things will explode for me again with a good business plan.8 years and im still making it, barely but its on automatic now. answer the phone, go clean, fill out invoice and file it.get check at po box put in bank and pay the bills.

a dream and a lot of motivation is what makes it happen.

Jim, if im not mistaken you and your wife do two jobs a day right? i couldnt remember for sure but im thinking about trying that here. ive just started kicking the idea around but i would be interested in asking a few questions if thats you.

I think you are thinking about Billy Hicks....He and his wife work together and I remember him saying that they only do one or two big jobs a day....(?)..

I do more then that a day and my wife is not allowed any where near my trucks........

But feel free to ask anything you need.........

Time to raise the bar

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