Who will make more money?

[ruff]

Very nice!
I guess I'd better get off this board and do some cold calling.

 

[Ken Snow]

KOJ somewhat amus I had to think aboout that one for a minute to remember WTH it meant. I don't know machine hours, but can find out Monday if it is important. I would guess 1200-1400. They are recorded every week as part of their inspection so we can get gas tax rebate, otherwise it is not an important number to us.

 

[Mark Saiger]

I do Approximately $200k per year on carpet cleaning realated. We are a 1 truck plus a 2nd part time truck (run by my daughter) We tag team on the larger jobs with the second truck. We are in a smaller community of about 8000 people. I love carpet cleaning, but lately have been struggling with the restoration side of our business (that has done about $273k this year). I am tired of the insurance companies and dealing with all the emotions of restoration. I am actually looking at getting out of restoration and just doing the carpet cleaning related services.

In our busy season (March - 1st part of Dec) we are doing around 5 - 8 carpet jobs per day. Those get to be long days also, but running the second van saves us a lot of time. To put it in perspective, in 14 months, I put on 32,000 miles on the newer van and over 1000 hours of cleaning time on the Butler. Not sure how many miles on the 2nd van and Butler, but it has also seen a lot of time. With carpet cleaning, you can have some fun, get in and out in the same day, get paid and have happy clients. Restoration takes more time and it always seems there are so many emotions that get involved.

I was wondering Ken, do you guys move the furniture in that price model that you advertise? Again, I am looking right now to change our business model.

All my restoration equipment is paid for so it could sit and I just take what I want there. Hard part is, we have not recruited the restoration work, but have been the preferred vendor around here over the other restoration and cleaners in the area. In a small community, you tend to know a lot of people, and they trust and want us. I have a hard time not responding to peoples needs in emergency situaitons (I get to emotionally involved probably too)

For Carpet cleaning, we are one of the higher priced guys (.34 cents per sq foot) and I am going to go up in price a slight bit this coming year (I hope). Restoration also has some high costs, so I keep running the numbers to see if we can survive carpet cleaning and start enjoying life again.

Anyway, I am at a crossroads again and appreciate any input. (Maybe a vacation is in order too!)

Thanks,

Mark Saiger

 

[Ken Snow]

Yep we do Mark. It sounds like you have a great bus model for you and if you can cut back the restoration without it causing you a problem that is great.

 

[Mark Saiger]

Thanks Ken,

I am finally getting some freetime (which means business has slowed down and that might not be a good thing) so I am reviewing everything I can to figure this out.

Approcimately how much of your buisiness is restoration? In know you are known for carpet and rug on the boards, but I also know you do restoration. Do you do both flood and fire?

Appreciate your time.

Mark

 

[Ken Snow]

Not much fire work, except for soft contents cleaning (rugs, carpet upholstery), most restoration work is water damage. We will do under 1 milllion this year which is way down from a few years ago. Part of this is vendor programs we are not on, part of it is saturation of wdr companies, part of it due to lack of severe weather and part of it is we havn't been really aggressive to take market share.

 

[Mark Saiger]

Thanks Ken,

Someday, I would like to talk to you about your WDR like if you have a crew on emergency call, or how you pull this off in your schedule.

Thanks again,

Mark

 

[Chris A]

Saiger" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

I do Approximately $200k per year on carpet cleaning realated. We are a 1 truck plus a 2nd part time truck (run by my daughter) We tag team on the larger jobs with the second truck. We are in a smaller community of about 8000 people. I love carpet cleaning, but lately have been struggling with the restoration side of our business (that has done about $273k this year). I am tired of the insurance companies and dealing with all the emotions of restoration. I am actually looking at getting out of restoration and just doing the carpet cleaning related services.

In our busy season (March - 1st part of Dec) we are doing around 5 - 8 carpet jobs per day. Those get to be long days also, but running the second van saves us a lot of time. To put it in perspective, in 14 months, I put on 32,000 miles on the newer van and over 1000 hours of cleaning time on the Butler. Not sure how many miles on the 2nd van and Butler, but it has also seen a lot of time. With carpet cleaning, you can have some fun, get in and out in the same day, get paid and have happy clients. Restoration takes more time and it always seems there are so many emotions that get involved.

I was wondering Ken, do you guys move the furniture in that price model that you advertise? Again, I am looking right now to change our business model.

All my restoration equipment is paid for so it could sit and I just take what I want there. Hard part is, we have not recruited the restoration work, but have been the preferred vendor around here over the other restoration and cleaners in the area. In a small community, you tend to know a lot of people, and they trust and want us. I have a hard time not responding to peoples needs in emergency situaitons (I get to emotionally involved probably too)

For Carpet cleaning, we are one of the higher priced guys (.34 cents per sq foot) and I am going to go up in price a slight bit this coming year (I hope). Restoration also has some high costs, so I keep running the numbers to see if we can survive carpet cleaning and start enjoying life again.

Anyway, I am at a crossroads again and appreciate any input. (Maybe a vacation is in order too!)

Thanks,

Mark Saiger

Sounds like you have a GREAT business model Mark, maybe you'd benefit from a good employee or 3 !gotcha!

 

[Mark Saiger]

Thanks Chris,

That's the part that scares us. We just struggle to hire someone else who if it got slow, we might have to lay off and effect their life in a negative way. At this time, I just keep the family working, but we are starting to tire out. Again, we love carpet cleaning, I think it has just been the restoration that has tired us out, mainly because we have been so busy with carpet cleaning and then have to go out on the emergency calls.

Again, I am going to try and figure this out to make us better yet.

Thanks for all the imput.

Mark

 

[Ken Snow]

It is also a separate division under the DBA Hagopian Fire & Flood Services. I have a separate staff for it with dedicated emergency service teams, salepeople, office staff, installers etc. This division does sub out some of the initial extractions when overloaded and also all the rug cleaning is subbed to our rug care division. Most of the temp work up until cleaning is done by the emergency services techs and then if post temp cleaing is done in a home or bus this is scheduled through the onlocation division as a subcontractor. Shoot me an email if you want to talk some Mark and we'll figure out a day/time. kensnow@originalhagopian.com

 

[Lee Stockwell]

The best thing about this board is guys like these two.

 

[Jerry]

Marks business model would be great, but I can see the burnout factor. I service a larger area than Mark, but I don't see those kind of gross numbers. I would like to net more $, and am marketing more and more to past customers. I backed off of advertising because it was eating up to many dollars.I also have about 70 competitors to deal with. i want to gross more also and start enjoying life.Why does this have to be so difficult!LOL

 

[daniel@procarpet]

Congrats Mark. You have things figured out.

I would put money Mark is netting more than this Big Mike guy on 1/5 the gross. If not more, then real close.

That just means less stress.

I just showed how a company with 5 portable crews grossing 50k per month will net the owner the same as a small 1.5 truck company doing a third the gross.

Yes Mark can burn out. That is why everyone should strive for 10 good years. Save, invest, and reitire young and rich.

Does this sound like a plan?

We all can't be Ken Snow and inherit a 50 year old established business.

If I thought I could make more by investing in more trucks, equipment, hiring and training personel, and advertising more, I would. That business model imo is dead because the high price of fuel, increased competition, and not being able to charge enough to make a real profit on a large scale. You either have to upsell hard or loose out to a lot of price shoppers.

Can SS make a profit doing three area jobs for 99 dollars?

Greg Cole makes money because his guys work for nothing. Thirty five percent and they provide the transportation, fuel,equipment, and chems. He is robbing them blind.

There is a guy here with a similar business model but most of his clients are repeats. They do five rooms, a hallway, and sofa/lovseat combo for 99 dollars. They don't bait and switch. They just work cheap as hell. He pays his contractors 45 percent. He provides the mahcine and basic chems. They provide the labor, truck, and fuel.

I say there is more money in running a professional low overhead 1.5 truck operation. The owner needs to do most of the work. All this get off the truck crap just means three times the work to make the same net.

Get off your ass and make it happen.

 

[Brian R]

If you're able to make your money and retire before you get too old for the physical work...more power to you.

After 20 years of working my ass off and doing some things wrong...like not saving my money or building ONE business I've about worked myself to death.
I'm 39 and feel like I'm as old as Harper. :shock:

The idea is this.

If you can start with one truck, work your ass off for a few years and then get another person to do the physical work...you are safer.
You can't depend on your own health...no real company can depend on one person....for very long.

When I was on the truck, I would be afraid to go skiing or ride my bike or anything that may break a leg or whatever.

You need to have a "back up plan" no matter what.

The whole reason for getting into the subbing industry were these reasons

1. If one sub can't make it...another can

2. If I break a leg (or injure my back) I don't have to worry about getting a carpet clean...peace of mind is priceless.

3. No employment hassles...this is huge.

4. Travel time is cut out if you have subs placed in the right areas...makes things better on them as well.

5. No equipment issues...again...if one sub can't make it...another one can


You can have this model and still do quality work with repeat business and referrals. You don't have to pay slave wages and you can still do high quality work if you find the right subs and pay them well....this includes marketing to the right demo to bring in better jobs.

Your subs should in turn be doing the same with their business model...they supplement their income from your jobs while building their business....you have to expect that with quality guys...they will spread their wings and fly soon enough.

If not, you don't want them working for you anyway.
There are few exceptions to that...I've found one maybe two that want to stick around and still do great work.

This has been a moment with Big B. shiteatinggrin

 

[Royal Man]

A typical net for 5 crews and 50K mo. gross is: $7500

A typical net for a one man crew grossing 10K mo. is : $8500

Is it worth the headaches?

It's a numbers game. For multible trucks you have to go big or go home.

Depends on how big your market is and can you keep your costs low enough with the increased overhead to see a reasonable profit of 15% or so.

 

[Brian R]

Dave,
At the lower level it is good to run a truck yourself for a while to bring those numbers up.

But that's about it...not sure if you numbers are right...I would think a little off to be honest...but not far from the truth.

 

[joe harper]

{QUOTE}....this includes marketing to the right demo to bring in better jobs.

















The FIRST LAW in sales.... :!:

NEVER ..."pre-judge"..a sale... :x

Many companies....Try to target the "mc-ManSioNs"...These can be the SLOWEST PAY....
PAIN IN THE ASS...clients in your BASE... !gotcha!

They are MUCH more likely to "cancel @ the last minute"..."leave the job with-out paying"..
"insist on mailing you a check"...and will complain about NOTHING..just to stall their payment...
MOST are PRICE SHOPPERS...& will have NO loyalty to your company.. :roll:

While you are "kissing her ass"....Assuming that is her BMW... :roll: Which is 2 months
behind on a LEASE... :shock:

You could be PocKeTinG....the cash from the FaRmER in his OVERALLS...That all the $100.00
bills.."That smell like CoffEE & dIrT"....

Build a LOYAL BASE....It is money in the BANK.... :idea:

"NEVER PRE-JUDGE A SALE... :!: :!: :!: :!: "

 

[joe harper]

A typical net for 5 crews and 50K mo. gross is: $7500

A typical net for a one man crew grossing 10K mo. is : $8500

Is it worth the headaches?

It's a numbers game. For multible trucks you have to go big or go home.

Depends on how big your market is and can you keep your costs low enough with the increased overhead to see a reasonable profit of 15% or so.

ARE YOU mUlTi-TrUcK.... :?:

Where do you get your #'s... :?:


If you are truck & 1/2 company... :!: The FIRST thing you do is RAISE YOUR PRICES ..:idea:

THEN.....you can "AFFORD to be a "2 TRUCK operations".....other wise...Your company is a
"HaLf-AssEd" ...operation... thathurts

 

[Art Kelley]

Yes Mark can burn out. That is why everyone should strive for 10 good years. Save, invest, and reitire young and rich.

Who will make more money?

The key is to not burn out. If you can keep working forever as an O/O and stay strong and healthy and enjoy what you do you can be both rich and in unbelievable physical condition long after most people are old and frail (and hoping their money won't run out). Studies have shown that being active and having a purpose in life brings the most happiness. So does having excellent health and plenty of money. A well respected O/O who has a sterling reputation will ultimately win this contest.

 

[Brian R]

{QUOTE}....this includes marketing to the right demo to bring in better jobs.







The FIRST LAW in sales.... :!:

NEVER ..."pre-judge"..a sale... :x

Many companies....Try to target the "mc-ManSioNs"...These can be the SLOWEST PAY....
PAIN IN THE ASS...clients in your BASE... !gotcha!

They are MUCH more likely to "cancel @ the last minute"..."leave the job with-out paying"..
"insist on mailing you a check"...and will complain about NOTHING..just to stall their payment...
MOST are PRICE SHOPPERS...& will have NO loyalty to your company.. :roll:

While you are "kissing her ass"....Assuming that is her BMW... :roll: Which is 2 months
behind on a LEASE... :shock:

You could be PocKeTinG....the cash from the FaRmER in his OVERALLS...That all the $100.00
bills.."That smell like CoffEE & dIrT"....

Build a LOYAL BASE....It is money in the BANK.... :idea:

"NEVER PRE-JUDGE A SALE... :!: :!: :!: :!: "

I concur.

I wouldn't target that market either..."right" doesn't mean more money from one....it means more money from many.
I like targeting the middle class. Mom with a couple of kids and a small business while the hubby is out bringing home the bacon...or vice versa.

They understand the value of a dollar and understand reality as well. Not much complaining and not much haggling.

 

[joe harper]

SEE..............


You are not a TotAl Looooooooooser... :mrgreen:

 

[Brian R]

Eh?

 

[ruff]

[The FIRST LAW in sales.... :!:

NEVER ..."pre-judge"..a sale... :x

Many companies....Try to target the "mc-ManSioNs"...These can be the SLOWEST PAY....
PAIN IN THE ASS...clients in your BASE... !gotcha!

They are MUCH more likely to "cancel @ the last minute"..."leave the job with-out paying"..
"insist on mailing you a check"...and will complain about NOTHING..just to stall their payment...
MOST are PRICE SHOPPERS...& will have NO loyalty to your company.. :roll:

While you are "kissing her ass"....Assuming that is her BMW... :roll: Which is 2 months
behind on a LEASE... :shock:

You could be PocKeTinG....the cash from the FaRmER in his OVERALLS...That all the $100.00
bills.."That smell like CoffEE & dIrT"....

Build a LOYAL BASE....It is money in the BANK.... :idea:

"NEVER PRE-JUDGE A SALE... :!: :!: :!: :!: "

OMG I agree with Harper.
Somebody please take my temperature

 

[ruff]

Yes Mark can burn out. That is why everyone should strive for 10 good years. Save, invest, and reitire young and rich.

Who will make more money?

The key is to not burn out. If you can keep working forever as an O/O and stay strong and healthy and enjoy what you do you can be both rich and in unbelievable physical condition long after most people are old and frail (and hoping their money won't run out). Studies have shown that being active and having a purpose in life brings the most happiness. So does having excellent health and plenty of money. A well respected O/O who has a sterling reputation will ultimately win this contest.

And with Art.
No need to check my temp on that one.
Thank you

 

[Ken Snow]

Not sure where Daniel gets his info or why he thinks he is correct. I don;t really agree with much of what he said and know he was wrong about all of his comments about me and our company. I assume he is also guessing or making things up about the others.

 

[daniel@procarpet]

Not sure where Daniel gets his info or why he thinks he is correct. I don;t really agree with much of what he said and know he was wrong about all of his comments about me and our company. I assume he is also guessing or making things up about the others.

Ken you have a great business. Still facts are facts.

Why would anyone want to gross 50k per month to keep 15k when they can do 15k and keep 10k with less stress?

My comments are dead on.

Yes 20 percent of 1 mil is more than 50 percent of 250k, but not by enough to justify all the extra hassel.

I wasn't dissing your company Ken.

I am just showing that a well run 1 truck operation will net the owner more or the same as a three truck company or a crew running 5 portables assuming that the 1 truck is working off referrals and repeats.

 

[Chris A]

I think unless you've done both successfully you have no reason to speculate. Also Dave it's not 1993 a two person crew can do a lot more than 10k a month. Hell even a one person "crew" can.

 

[Ken Snow]

I think unless you've done both successfully you have no reason to speculate. Also Dave it's not 1993 a two person crew can do a lot more than 10k a month. Hell even a one person "crew" can.

I agree Chris

Daniel I was talking about your comments regarding me and my company specifically- all of which were incorrect. When someone makes erroneous coments and states them like fact instead of like an opinion they tend to lose credibility with me for everything else that came with it. I don't know of your example regarding the gross and net (there are so many factors behind those to very different things) but I do believe they are at best hypothetical scenerios, not facts.

Ken

 

[Ryan]

Ken you have a great business. Still facts are facts.

Why would anyone want to gross 50k per month to keep 15k when they can do 15k and keep 10k with less stress?

Because when you go to sell out you will get 5x the amount for the larger business. And all of you guys are forgetting the stress on your body, I don't plan to have a bad back and worn out knees when I'm 45. I've managed employees at two different jobs before I started my business and my dad has done it for the past 25 years, I think you guys are over complicating the stress of employees.

 

[daniel@procarpet]

Ken you have a great business. Still facts are facts.

Why would anyone want to gross 50k per month to keep 15k when they can do 15k and keep 10k with less stress?

Because when you go to sell out you will get 5x the amount for the larger business. And all of you guys are forgetting the stress on your body, I don't plan to have a bad back and worn out knees when I'm 45. I've managed employees at two different jobs before I started my business and my dad has done it for the past 25 years, I think you guys are over complicating the stress of employees.

That's assuming you can sell out.

Doing that is getting harder each day as more businesses open shop.

See I am right again.

An owner op has two choices. Maxmimize profits or reinvest profits to grow the business at a quicker pace. Ok there is a third option. Borrow the money and be in debt.

What happpens when you spend years growing a business that in your mind has a lot of equity, but overnight some new technology makes your company obsolete? Your business just dropped in value.

Here is a little analysis for you. My dad works for a private family owned grocery chain. The net for grocery stores is very little. Usually not even 10 percent. Most things are marked up 20 percent but never more than 30 percent. Then all the bills have to be paid out of that markup. The owners now have 5 stores and will be opening a new one next year. For years they made good money, but eventually they decided to grow. Don't get me wrong. They are making a ton of money. Their stores do over 50 mil a year. Each year they get a three percent rebate of the total purchases from AWG (associated wholsale grocers). Last year that came out to be 800k. They can pocket that rebate or invest it into new stores. They have used the rebate the last two years to open new stores. They are also partners in AWG. Plus they have stakes in the growers profits. They have a great business model that predominatly focuses on the spanish population. They do a ton of volume to make a small net, but the equity in their business is where the real money is. They could easily sell the business for 5 times yearly grosses.

The point is the business has to be sellable.

Now they can not open any more stores and collect 10 percent of 50-60 million every year. That's not a bad salary, or they can open more stores.

Ken I appologize for getting you mixed up in this analysis. No one here will ever have the business you have. I know I will not.

Investing most of my profits back into the business is not a viable option for me because I feel I will never be able to sell the business for more than equipment and maybe a little for the customer base.

Would I buy another carpet cleaning business if I had the money? Never in a million years.