the endless debate on detergents vs acid rinse

juniorc82

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I usualy always pre spray with an alk. pre spray then extract with all fiber rinse in my fresh water. I have did this for the last 3 years with great results . the only time I might use an emulsifier is when I am doing a restraunt or a super nasty rental and use that after my pre spray. anyway I am talking to a competitor today whom I have always thought of as skilled since she has every iicrc cert. known to man. well she tells me that she pre sprays , extracts with dry slurry in the rinse water then goes back and after sprays with acid rinse and then dry vacuums with wand. I have never heard of anyone doing this. I pulled up the jon don catalog and on the instructions for all fiber rinse it said can be used in fresh water or used as an after spray then dry vacuumed. I have never heard of this method , is it common? I have always gotten great results with just prespraying and using the acid rinse in the extraction water. Her method seems like too much time . I would think if you have a decent pre spray with decent heat , dwell, and agitation why would you need to extract with an emulsifier? and then why would you double up on the alkaline when the pre spray along with the proper chat, or tact or the pie you should be ok . Well this lady is the most expensive in town so thats probly why. Have you guys heard of this I am realy hoping this sounds strange to someone else because I felt a bit confused when she told me this method
 
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ruff

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Let's not confuse what she does to "Justify" or build the perception of her business in the eyes of her clients with what is necessary for good cleaning.

Two completely different issues.

And not necessarily related.
 

Mikey P

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Chem overload in her carpets.


Use what ever rinse you feel good about but cut it back by 75%. Your clients and your pocket book will thank you.



and unless you're a non prespraying hack, you'll never even notice.
 

Dolly Llama

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I forget what Prochem called that program.
Max clean minimum residue ? or something like that

it's a load of hog wash in an effort to sell more juice.

truth is, Ph isn't the cause of resoil.
Some pre-sprays leave a more sticky residue than others hi or low ph
applying acid doesn't make a sticky residue not sticky

Here's something i learned from a Prochem wheel himself.
he recommended we use separate sprayers for al fiber rinse and protectants.
he told us that just a few drops of acid rinse would contaminate and muck up protectant's efficacy.

when I asked why do juice makers recommend acid before applying 'guard,
he gave a me what I consider a FOS answer that it was diluted enough over the carpet.

yet he stressed that just a couple/few drops in a mixing jug was enough to contaminate a gal of 'guard ... :roll:

BTW, I generally like Prochem juice.
Over all I think their line is top shelf
But their all fiber rinse is pure gunky CRAP

..L.T.A.
 
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That's funny I read Pembertons post awhile back and never used an acid rinse again.

I like soft water and a neutral rinse like Mikey said cut way back and metered low.

Bridgepoint used to say spray it on and rake it in (fabset) What a soil attractor.
 
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Larry Cobb

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Most of my customers prespray with a alkaline product ...

and then flush with lots of hot TM water.

pH usually ends up at ~8, since our water is above 7.0.

An all-fiber rinse will bring that pH down to about 6, if that is where you want to be.

Larry
 

juniorc82

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whats the deal with all the people against acid rinse? it removes soap residue and has never seemed to cause resoiling. plus depending on what your pre spray is you would want an acid rinse to bring your carpet back to neutral. I have had nothing but great results with acid rinses
 

ACE

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I don't use a cid rinse unless it's a natural fiber. I just get better results from an emulsifier. As long as you flush that pre spray out, I’m not sure why PH should matter most of the time. I have been wondering lately about how protector applied after cleaning is affected by PH. I always use an acid rinse before applying floor finish because it adheres much better. The same is likely true with fluorochemicals but it’s harder to see. It’s not often that I use a hot pre-spray then Scotchgard, but I dose happen. I think I might start spraying down some cid first in those cases. I suspect allot of the problems people have with protectors are because of bad chemical reactions: Cationics, High PH and residues. Does anyone know if there is a suggested PH range for protectors?
 

CleanEvo

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I WAS always using a high PH pre-spray followed by an acid rinse. Recently I switched to using the pre-spray (Ultrapac)and followed with Dry Slurry, diluted way down and metered light, been working way better. I've also been able to dilute down the pre-spray more with this set up. Works great, tested it on my own carpets and found no more residue than when I used All Fibre Rinse, carpets were soft too.
 

Jimmy L

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I remember a class years ago with all the local COIT hacks sitting in their little group.

When one of them spoke up in class that "THEY" post sprayed fab set on the carpet after cleaning I asked why would you spray another dirt attracting chem on "CLEAN" carpet.

Well I guess "it was the right thing to do" and most everybody there did it the whole class laughed at me because I was ignert.

Humiliated I sat quietly in the back the rest of the class talking to myself "Why did I do that?, am I stupit , I'll just never lern this, I need to get a job at wal-mart"

But all classes are just a set up to sell stuff.


But i did learn thru the years to cut my chem dilution ratios back at least 50 percent.

And all those COIT guys that I never see anymore probably took my idea and "THEY" are the ones working at wal-mart.

While in class I did take down their names and I still have my "List".


:shock:
 
G

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Walrus said:
I remember a class years ago with all the local COIT hacks sitting in their little group.

When one of them spoke up in class that "THEY" post sprayed fab set on the carpet after cleaning I asked why would you spray another dirt attracting chem on "CLEAN" carpet.

Well I guess "it was the right thing to do" and most everybody there did it the whole class laughed at me because I was ignert.

Humiliated I sat quietly in the back the rest of the class talking to myself "Why did I do that?, am I stupit , I'll just never lern this, I need to get a job at wal-mart"

But all classes are just a set up to sell stuff.


But i did learn thru the years to cut my chem dilution ratios back at least 50 percent.

And all those COIT guys that I never see anymore probably took my idea and "THEY" are the ones working at wal-mart.

While in class I did take down theri names and I still have my "List".


:shock:
That Mikey guy can be an ass sometimes
 

Bob Savage

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Coits wand stroke is a joke. They are afraid to get the carpet wet, so they use one short chop stroke and no additional dry stroke.

Judson's juice is the best I have used so far.

Prespray with their OXY pre-spray.

Add their hot sauce modifier to the pre-spray if the carpet is nasty, and rinse thru the truckmount with their OXY 2 extraction rinse, with some DD-12 Vabreeze.
 

TimP

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juniorc82 said:
whats the deal with all the people against acid rinse? it removes soap residue and has never seemed to cause resoiling. plus depending on what your pre spray is you would want an acid rinse to bring your carpet back to neutral. I have had nothing but great results with acid rinses


The reason I don't like acid rinse is that it doesn't help with the cleaning process. All it does is play the PH game.

I prefer to use something that helps with the cleaning process and softens the water. If your machine can't extract water well then I can see why an acid would be more important to use since you can't get out all the stuff you use. Also when a detergent drys it turns to a dry powder in very small quantities and is easily vacuumed away. Water by itself is not a cleaning agent and it's not the right thing to use unless it's softened, that's why Mikey can't tell any or much of a difference. The surfactants and softening agents of a good emulsifier make the difference to me. From the rinse detergents I've used so far Masterblend Soap free and Prochem Heat wave are my favorites. BTW I use about 1/2 of what it says on the containers and meter 3-4.
 

Bob Savage

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Tim,

Judson's OXY 2 extraction rinse DOES help with the cleaning process, whereas other fiber rinses do not have cleaning ability.
 

sweendogg

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Junior,

Here is the delio, in most normal soiling situations, your prespray is going to do all the work. When you get to extraction, you are simply rinsing the prespray and soil from the carpet. And most of the time, you won't notice a difference between and acid rinse, a detergent rinse or plain water on synthetic carpet. On natural fiber carpets like wool and cotton, (yes manufactures are now putting cotton in some high end wall to walls), the acid rinse will give you a better shot of preventing browning. (the same goes for jute back carpets.) Of course in these situations, using approved presprays with less buffering is important as well. Detergent rinses are used when a) you have a really heavy soiled situation where, the additional emulsification properties of a detergent rinse would be beneficial, b) you don't prespray and rely solly and an emulsifier through your machine to clean with, or c) you use a non residual emulsifying rinse to clean a lightly soiled carpet that you maintain every 3-6 months for a devout customer.

We have offered in the past a three step cleaning at a premium for heavy soiled carpets that included a protector application as well in which for 0.75/sqft we presprayed, detergent flushed and then quick one stroke acid rinse with the truckmount. We had about 10 clients request this package, and even though we charged a premium for it, I can't conclude that the extra rinse step was necessary.

Although Jon Don's procedures state that a post spray application of acid rinse is acceptable. That may be a waste of time depending on a) the pH and buffering in the prepray and b) the pH and buffering in the detergent rinse. If you have two highly buffered cleaning agents, a simple post spray with acid will not be enough to shift the pH like one desires. It would require a complete flushing pass with an acid rinse to actually neutralize and sour the fiber.

But like others have mentioned with the exception of a few situations such as natural fibers, or perhaps an application of a pH sensitive protector, the choise of your rinse agent should be based upon soiling conditions and profit margins to get the carpet clean effectively and efficiently.
 

ruff

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sweendogg said:
Junior,

Here is the delio, in most normal soiling situations, your prespray is going to do all the work. When you get to extraction, you are simply rinsing the prespray and soil from the carpet. And most of the time, you won't notice a difference between and acid rinse, a detergent rinse or plain water on synthetic carpet. On natural fiber carpets like wool and cotton, (yes manufactures are now putting cotton in some high end wall to walls), the acid rinse will give you a better shot of preventing browning. (the same goes for jute back carpets.) Of course in these situations, using approved presprays with less buffering is important as well. Detergent rinses are used when a) you have a really heavy soiled situation where, the additional emulsification properties of a detergent rinse would be beneficial, b) you don't prespray and rely solly and an emulsifier through your machine to clean with, or c) you use a non residual emulsifying rinse to clean a lightly soiled carpet that you maintain every 3-6 months for a devout customer.

We have offered in the past a three step cleaning at a premium for heavy soiled carpets that included a protector application as well in which for 0.75/sqft we presprayed, detergent flushed and then quick one stroke acid rinse with the truckmount. We had about 10 clients request this package, and even though we charged a premium for it, I can't conclude that the extra rinse step was necessary.

Although Jon Don's procedures state that a post spray application of acid rinse is acceptable. That may be a waste of time depending on a) the pH and buffering in the prepray and b) the pH and buffering in the detergent rinse. If you have two highly buffered cleaning agents, a simple post spray with acid will not be enough to shift the pH like one desires. It would require a complete flushing pass with an acid rinse to actually neutralize and sour the fiber.

But like others have mentioned with the exception of a few situations such as natural fibers, or perhaps an application of a pH sensitive protector, the choise of your rinse agent should be based upon soiling conditions and profit margins to get the carpet clean effectively and efficiently.
I agree with most, however, I strongly disagree that a water rinse alone will do a good job removing residue.

I did the pre-spray clear water rinse for years and found out that water alone could not remove a lot of the pre-spray residue. An emulisifier rinse did much much better.
 

sweendogg

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Well it does dependon which prespray you are using. Some presprays, water alone will work, however some that are much more heavier resdue prone, then a comprobable rinse is important.
 

Dolly Llama

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sweendogg said:
Well it does dependon which prespray you are using. Some presprays, water alone will work, however some that are much more heavier resdue prone, then a comprobable rinse is important.

It's more than that.
a quality emulsifier conditions your rinse water and allows better rising as a result.

if an acid rinse doesn't condition the water...it ain't sheet and just snake oil to separate the rubes from their money


..L.T.A.
 

juniorc82

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again I am thinking that an emulsifier will not be able to remove soap residue like an acid rinse. A good example is 2 days ago I cleaned a womans carpet and while I was cleaning the daughter told me that she had ran a rug doctor machine over the carpet once every 2 weeks for the last year. when she told me that I went very very light on pre spray and used the acid rinse. as I was cleaning my waste tank was getting foamy out the ass and you could see in some areas the carpet foaming up as I was cleaning. Before I cleaned the carpet was rough and brittle to the touch . when I was done it was soft and fluffy. There is no doubt in my mind an emulsifier could not have flushed out all the rug doctor crap that had been left in that carpet as well as the acid rinse....... Now as for cleaning ability if you get plenty of heat and agitiation and flushing your pre spray should do the work for you and the acid rinse will simply flush out the pre spray. Again on the common residential I am still convinced the acid rinse is boss. On the nastys I have no quams with going the emulsifier route I just have a hard time believing that an emulsifier can remove the residue like an acid rinse
 

Farenheit251

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I have one rental management company that has me clean every house every year regardless of whether the tenant renews or moves out. About 200 houses a year for 4 years, I always run emulsifier and am surprised how many are still clean from last year. I only use the good stuff masterblend, Genicare and Prochem and don't feel like they contribute to resoil.
Shawn Forsythe said that surfactant residue is more of a resoil concern than PH and he seems to know more than the next 5 smartest people combined. I dont even think dry carpet has a PH.
 

juniorc82

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Captain Cleantastic said:
I have one rental management company that has me clean every house every year regardless of whether the tenant renews or moves out. About 200 houses a year for 4 years, I always run emulsifier and am surprised how many are still clean from last year. I only use the good stuff masterblend, Genicare and Prochem and don't feel like they contribute to resoil.
Shawn Forsythe said that surfactant residue is more of a resoil concern than PH and he seems to know more than the next 5 smartest people combined. I dont even think dry carpet has a PH.
well ph is not my concern as much as removing residue from the pre spray
 

Johnny

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I don't like acid rinses. They don't seem to rinse as well. CTI's Last Step dosen't seem to emulsify at all. It just smears the dirt around, leaving black streaks.

I like Judson rinse a lot, especially the drying agent and oxygen additives.

But I've used Grease Master Formula 1000 for several years, and can buy it locally. It works as well as anything else I've used, is ph8, and is clean rinsing, and Frank just made me a deal on a buttload of it. (It's the stuff he was running through his 310-degree Genesis at Mikefest.)

STOP GLOBAL COOLING!
 

tim

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I use Judsons Rinse or BPs Endzone which does have an encapsulant. My customers say the carpets are much softer than before I cleaned. They say alot of cleaners leave their carpets crunchy, including SS, which runs an emulsifier through the wand. I have tried emulsifiers but never noticed the carpets getting cleaner, I guess I use good prespray. Funny how everyone has had completely different experiences on this subject. I just stick to what my customers have been happy with.
 

Jimmy L

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Sweendawg do you always over ANALize stuff that is not rocket science?

maybe you should give a us a break because you use crap like matrix and ReLEAsIt?


:shock:
 

juniorc82

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Walrus said:
Sweendawg do you always over ANALize stuff that is not rocket science?

maybe you should give a us a break because you use crap like matrix and ReLEAsIt?


:shock:
whats wrong with matrix and releasit? I think someone is just mad there is no jondon in omaha lol! Guess you gotta settle for interlink. at least you have that cool pedestrian bridge up there makes me wish I never left council bluffs lol ya right
 

sweendogg

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I use crap like that becaue we got a crap ton from our Jon don when we purchased the machine a few years back. They have great customer service and stuff does the job. I like the O2 system as well. We use Masterblend products almost exclusively for our In plant rug cleaning, and I have a heavy respect for Chemspec products as well. Almost all of the Matrix brand is a private labeled product from a nother company like grandslam = prochem ultra pac, with the exact same all fiber rinse. finish first is formula 90 from chemspec. Just like all of you, I'm always on the look out for the best chemical combos. But saving money on non branded good cleaning producs is also a plus.

And I do apoligize for being verbose, I guess I like to hear myself type.. damn physics majors. :wink:
 

Loren Egland

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I get tired of the "acid rinse" & "fresh water rinse" ruse. If someone doesn't agree with this approach, they are perceived to be causing problems to the carpet and are not doing as good of a cleaning job, and thus deemed to be "putting the security of the free world at risk". To quote an anonymous source: "HOGWASH, BALDERDASH, NONSENSE, FALDERAL, HORSEFEATHERS, AND POPPYCOCK!"

Have you heard this before? "Properly used, an acid rinse leaves the fiber with a softer "hand" or feel, and better prepared to accept a fabric/fiber protector, thus enhancing its perfromance and ensureing the customer gets maximum value from the protector."
I am not sure how this works or why. I usually tell customers I sell protection to that 1. the carpet will take longer to dry 2. will feel tacky while drying 3. may have a crisp static charge when completely dry until walked on. (I tell them these things after I have applied it, not before)

The questions: How does the fiber have a softer hand of feel if you apply protection (maybe I misunderstood this point in connection with protection)? And How does an acid rinse affect the performance of the protection? And if it does, why don't the manufactures of teflon and scotchgard make mention of this?

Though there are times I may use an acid rinse, but an acid rinse or treatment does not leave any less total residue. It might even leave more residue. The type of residue as well as the amount of residue are both important, but the pH neutralization from an acid rinse is not an issue on synthetic carpets today.

I see the reason for this as a marketing tool, and as a means of some manufactures to control possible problems from using too high an unbuffered pH prespray. I prefer to use prespray technology that cleans well without excessive pH. The prespray pH measurement may decrease when diluted, but always returns to its concentrated state as the water evaporates.

Keep in mind that neither carpet manufactures nor IICRC contain any such requirements for carpet cleaning. Most are concerned with yellowing or effects upon the protection from excessively high pH residues and the amount of residue left behind.
Recent information has also indicated that the amount of alkalinity may be of more consequence than the pH measurement.

It is my position that the most efficient way to clean a carpet is a good prespray designed for the carpet to be cleaned, in combination with a compatible rinse agent, ie, both from the same manufacturer. I believe this is the most effective, low residue cleaning system possible for synthetic carpets.

But what about fresh water rinsing? Are chemical manufacturers just trying to sell us more chemical that we don't need? That is what some would suggest. However, are you sure that the concept of fresh water rinsing was not the brain child of someone who just happened to run out of chemical and money at the same time?

Understand that complete residue removal is impossible, (though we want to remove as much as possible & supersuckers help here). Because the chemical requirements of pre-treatment, molecular adhesion, desolving, and stripping abilities, the inherent residues are often tacky. Neutralization of these agents is accomplished in the emulsifying detergent we rinse with, resulting in the lowest residue amount possible. Sticky residue vs crystallized residue.

Many cheap traffic lane cleaners are poorly formulated and leave sticky residues.
A quality rinsing agent will dry to a crystallized state, and can easily by removed in subsequent vacuuming. A rinse agent that is compatible with the prespray (usually the same manufacturer) will attract the prespray better than plain water. Thus less overall residue as well.

A rinsing chemical will flat out clean the carpet better than water only, based upon my experience of 39 years cleaning carpet.

Fresh water is not always fresh. Some areas have very hard water, and will leave mineral deposits that can cause a worse resoiling residue than the same water treated with an agent that will help soften the water.

A quality rinsing agent will help keep the scale from building up since it has rust inhibitors and can coat the coils of any heating system. I would thing acid rinsing might cause more difficulties to the equipment if used often.

Quoting from another article "Probably the most important reason for not fresh-water rinsing lies in the whole design of extraction cleaning and chemicals we are using. Your prespray or traffic lane cleaner is not designed to perform the total cleaning job. The prespray is designed to loosen (break surface tension) and suspend ground-in soiling from the fiber itself. A prespray needs the contribution that a rinsing chemical gives it by being injected under pressue into the carpet. If you want maximum soil removal, then a prespray and rinsing detergent should be used in combination. The emulsifying function of the rinsing chemical is an important and necessary part of cleaning and serve as a compatible compliment."

Sometimes not all of the carpet may need a prespray, but sometimes parts that do are not covered. Also, carpet is often pretty dense or deep, so all fibers may not be completely penetrated by your prespray. Injecting our rinsing chemical under pressure can effectively clean out the deeper soils in the carpet. If these are not removed, they could serve as a worse resoiling agent than chemical residues.

Its not just about pH neutalization. If only it was that simple.

I am more concerned about removing the soil and other contaminants from the carpet than leaving a slight amount of residue that is does not cause resoiling. Some even claim their products have soil repelling properties.

Loren
 

Art Kelley

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Loren Egland said:
A rinsing chemical will flat out clean the carpet better than water only, based upon my experience of 39 years cleaning carpet.

Quoting from another article "Probably the most important reason for not fresh-water rinsing lies in the whole design of extraction cleaning and chemicals we are using. Your prespray or traffic lane cleaner is not designed to perform the total cleaning job. The prespray is designed to loosen (break surface tension) and suspend ground-in soiling from the fiber itself. A prespray needs the contribution that a rinsing chemical gives it by being injected under pressue into the carpet. If you want maximum soil removal, then a prespray and rinsing detergent should be used in combination. The emulsifying function of the rinsing chemical is an important and necessary part of cleaning and serve as a compatible compliment."


Loren

This would be correct for those theorists in the lab or those that don't bother to precondition properly and use some kind of floor machine, but a good thorough prespraying followed by 175 where needed puts your detergent right into the fiber and it is easily rinsed by fresh water under high flow and high vacuum.
 
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