Fiber ID

[JamesBaileySmith]

I am curious to know how many of you identify both faceyarns and backing yarns before you clean. Do you perform a burn test or use chemicals? If you do not, then explain why? Do some of you believe you can tell by looking?
I guess when I post, everyone second guesses on what my motivation is. Well, I am not getting ready to drop the hammer on everyone who does not do fiber ID. This is not to say that I believe it is important. I could be wrong, but my guess is not even one in 100 cleaners actually does a burn test on every carpet on its first cleaning. If I have a point to prove that would be it.

 

[Cousin]

James, if I'm cleaning, I don't check the fibre.

I know (in most cases) what I'm dealing with.

The only one that still throws me is some tight short loop commercial carpets.

Some are olefins, some are amides with very little twist.

Very rare I need to burn or chemical the backing, it pretty much explains itself.

I feel if you've been in the game for a while, you will pick it in most cases.

If you're starting out, doesn't hurt to check your fibre from time to time.

You'll gain visual assessment fairly quick this way.

But if I'm inspecting and reporting, I will always fibre id the face yarn.


M

 

[sweendogg]

James, I grew in a family business that has been selling floorcovering for over 50 years. So when you have dealt with products for that long. It doesn't take a long time before you start recognizing the differnce between Nylon, polyester, Olefin and Wool. And unless its a powebond backing, woven backing or Jute, 85 % or more of the carpet being sold utilizes a polypropoline backing.. ie Olefin. Now Fiber ID and backing ID is important if it looks like something is amiss before you clean it like perhaps you may want to know if something is woven or jute backing and understand how long it can be wet with out creating problems. Or perhaps there is a large medicine spill and it hasn't stripped color yet. Understanding wether its olefin or Nylon could mean the difference betwen telling your customer that the color will come out when you wet it with your cleaning solutions or not.

Probably the biggest reason to fiber ID is to prequalify a problem before it happens. And most of these situations will occur on a rug or upholstery and not that often on carpet. But certain situations do arrise when knowing for sure is important.

 

[harryhides]

I will always check fiber ID on rugs and always look at the backing.
I rarely check fiber ID on broadloom unless it is to confirm an Acrylic or wool. For most of the rest it does not much matter.

On Upholstery, I feel that here it would be the most important place to know the fiber content but since so many are blends it's very difficult but I do always test as much as I can, usually by burn and sometimes by chem test.

 

[steve frasier]

sometimes it might be hard to tell a fiber but once you start doing some preteat and cleaning it becomes very easy

the non exposed backing would be hard for me

I have been suprised a few times in high end homes, what looked to be a plush nylon turned out to be olefin. It had 100% olefin stamped on the back cover

I could understand ID on rugs but in most case in the residential setting the chems we use are not going to hurt the fiber you are cleaning

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

I think the real question is more basic. Does the cleaner exercise a "standard or care" that is not of his own definition, but of an industry consensus?

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

That is an excellent point Shawn. Does the S100 require us to test or simply to know?

 

[Tony Dees]

Hell I blast it all! F'em all, let god sort'em out.

I don't check them all, just when I see one that is out of the norm.

On upholstery...ALWAYS

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Tony, in my early years we would have gotten alone great.
One of the other reasons that caused me to post was a dilemma a friend of mine encountered. He hot water extracted a herringbone upholstery fabric with a chevron in the transition of the reverse pattern. The fill yarn is rayon chenille; the warp is polyester. I have never seen one like it before.
The nap of the chenille did not rise after the cleaning. The appearance of the fabric is significantly different from a remnant. I have seen similar problems on rayon velvet that was used on the relief section of a matelasse. I wish they would never use rayon on upholstery pile fabrics. Cotton seems to never have any complaints.
His question for me is whether he is responsible for replacement. Admittedly he did not do any fiber identification before cleaning. Better explanations of what to expect would have made this situation for better. Furthermore, this is upholstery, not carpet. If we are talking standards, I believe the S300 hold a technician to different standard.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Does the S100 require us to test or simply to know?

The current edition of the S100 does not indicate the means by which we might identify fibers, but it does clearly indicate that we must know, or find out before cleaning, in order to determine proper care.

For instance, if you you don't know the fiber, then how could you know whether the chemicals you plan to use are both safe and effective?

Section 1.3 of the S100 standard states:
"Every carpet has unique characteristics and each carpet cleaning project should be carefully evaluated to determine proper application of this standard."

 

[Cousin]

I could be wrong, but my guess is not even one in 100 cleaners actually does a burn test on every carpet on its first cleaning.

Furthermore, this is upholstery, not carpet.

:?:

 

[Tony Dees]

The fact of the matter is he really should have done a burn test and use his professional judgement.

Is he liable...yes

Did it brown on him or did he just burn it?

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

What kind of things would you do in a pre-inspection? What kinds of tools would you use; moisture meter, light, ultraviolet light, pH pen, etc.

 

[The Great Oz]

I am curious to know how many of you identify both faceyarns and backing yarns before you clean. Do you perform a burn test or use chemicals? If you do not, then explain why? Do some of you believe you can tell by looking?

With a certain amount of experience in-use 6 can be differentiated from 6.6 just with hand/eye observation, so I don't test unless the yarn looks to be a plant fiber. I have difficulty being certain whether plant or one of the more practical imitations so would burn to ID. If I were an inspector or really couldn't tell the diference between other fibers, I'd use a microscope. Even a toy like the Q5 works really well to positively ID fiber.

It isn't practical to disassemble fabric to test, and the whole fabric would respond differently depending on percentages of fibers and construction. Better to just test clean an area. In the case mentioned here, the cleaner should have noticed shiny chenille and taken the time to find out if it was Mercerized cotton, rayon or silk. Unless the nap can be brought back up with steam and brushing, a guy that just cleaned the fabric using his "typical" method would be on the hook for replacement.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

How important is it to establish a definitive limit on alkalinity? Normally the point behind fiber identification is to find either nylon or wool. The problem with either fiber is excess alkalinity.

 

[The Great Oz]

How important is it to establish a definitive limit on alkalinity? Normally the point behind fiber identification is to find either nylon or wool. The problem with either fiber is excess alkalinity.

I guess guys that use commercial detergents or oxidizers on everything should learn how to tell the difference, as they're the ones most likely to damage carpet. Otherwise I think the stain-resist is harder to hurt than makers let on, and unbuffered alkalines under, say, 9.5 do less harm than the wool producers want to admit. You're in a bind if you're teaching though, as every idiot that wants to do something goofy will say the instructor told him it was OK, so you have to pick something definitive like pH under 5.5...

Finding nylon, wool, polypropylene or polyester in a carpet construction is pretty easy by look and feel. It takes a few minutes with carpet samples to demonstrate so would be tough to teach via book or on-line.

 

[leesenter]

It is in the S100 that a carpet cleaner must make a reasonable attempt to ascertain the carpet fiber and construction type.
I was hired by an FCITS inspector to inspect a carpet he had cleaned made by Crossley. This style of carpet was well known to shrink because of its cotton/jute backing. This carpet required that it be installed using architectural tackstripping on all sides. He cleaned the carpet normally with his Genesis and the carpet shrunk. He fixed the carpet but it shrunk the next time it was cleaned too. The client was livid. The inspector/cleaner refused to do anything and cited the fact that the carpet had been installed using regular tackstrip. It went to court, he hired me and I researched all aspects of the claim. However because he had not made a "reasonable attempt" to ascertain the construction he was going to lose.
I see many carpets that have shrunk as a result of poor preinspection. High end homes especially. There is still lots of woven and jute backed carpets out there. With people thinking more and more about using green products we have seen a flood of purchases of Godfrey Hirst carpet here. If you use your super duper prespray on them you WILL leave light spots. They brown out and shrink. The shrinkage is usually not evident because it wasn't properly stretched in the first place.
I always teach in my classes, if you haven't seen the carpet type/style before-CHECK! Check out the secondary backing. It only takes a second.
As for being able to tell the difference just by looking, well with loops olefins usually crush, nylons hold some tuft definition. With cut piles, polyesters usually suck up oils really quickly around kitchen entrances. I use those indicators.

 

[-JB-]

I wish they would never use rayon on upholstery pile fabrics

I'll second that!


And as far as testing, broadloom, rarely, unless as Tony said...

unless it is to confirm an Acrylic or wool. For most of the rest it does not much matter.

Is shop, only if the fiber is in question as 90 % are wool.

Upholstery always the first time.