Hydramaster, Sapphire, SteamAction, El-Diablo, Cleanpro slide-ins

BIG WOOD

MLPW
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Feb 4, 2016
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13,158
Location
Georgia
Name
Matt w.
Can all of you, engineers just use the good quality points of all the models to create a machine that doesn't Fk UP after only 2k hrs? Let's start with the information I've put together on the 6 truckmounts that I've owned and maintained that each had it's own positives and negatives

1. Turn that motor sideways to get easier access to the timing belt, blower and blower belt, and put a belt tensioner pulley on all your blowers. Quit using a mounting plate to slide the blower. It's a BITCH to loosen the bolts and it can lead to improper tightening, shrinking of the flex exhaust hose underneath if the blower is moved too far over and a tensioner pulley keep everything straight and the blower breathes so much better. You're completely ignorant if you don't put this feature back into your designs on ALL of your sizes.

2. An external water box is needed to help keep the water from overheating. I've been using a 570 lately and I remember how hot the water was on the amtex, and the water is not maintained as well as the water on my everest, thermal wave, titan, and boxxer XL, and legend was. Sure, it saves space, but so does the way your blowers on the 570 and 370 is set up for it to be a Bitch to adjust on those as well. Saving space shouldn't be your only objective. Ease of maintenance and safety should be your two main objectives. I love how the external water box is mounted on the waste tank and not on the machine.

3. I love the belt coolant system you have on the 570. Incorporate that design in every machine.

4.Be sure whatever engine you use isn't gonna get discontinued. Same thing with the blowers. I was considering getting a rebuild kit for my TI410, but they were a year out on back order. Douchebag move you guys pulled on that.

5. Hydramaster is most guilty on this: Make a better waste tank. Your tank is a joke. Thin gauge metal, plastic 2" vacuum connections. Look at what the other tanks are made of and how the ports are part of the tank, not screwed in the tank. And your 575 is weak on long hose runs. Both from the design of the waste tank and blower. If you can't make a design that's able to handle 14" instead of your 12" requirement, you're over promising and under delivering a quality product. El-diablow...your waste tank looks very similar. You might want to start getting feedback on that. Hot water is a small piece of your design

6. Electronically: I'm sure you guys already have addressed this, but the ECU needs to be nowhere near that engine. In fact, it should be in a chamber similar to the old prochem machines where they had that chamber in front of the engine where fresh air came in.

7. And quit putting parts on there that get discontinued. That's a dickhead move, knowing that an owner operator like myself being the only source of income for my family could crumble if my GM engine doesn't last much longer from the way it overheated from this computer going bad AFTER YOU installed it right next to the engine block in a CONFINED (look at the side covers), low air moving spot.
8. And it shouldn’t be the operators job to install a good water filter on the supply side of the machine. It needs to be part of the plumbing.

I go over my machines very frequently and take care of my stuff, only to get more downtime than these big franchises who have freaking losers neglect their machines.

If you can't apply and learn from both your mistakes and improvements and feel like the "latest and re-engineered" is the only avenue, I'm gonna sell out all my machines and go straight with Butler or Aerotech and not do any business with these types of companies.

I was in a conversation with one of the manufacturers this week, and told him of my current headache. His response: "When it rains, it Pours". Well, it would be sunny had they used common sense in these machines before putting them out in the field.

I'M TIRED OF DOWNTIME FROM FAULTY DESIGNS!
 
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Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
9,345
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Hawaii
Name
Nate W.
Maybe you could switch over to padding.. You sound like a good candidate.. I know-a-guy who can hook you up with a shake-n-shine machine, just lmk..

You can either b!tch about it, or do something about it.. I like to b!tch and then MacGyver something to get the job done.......Then you brainstorm with fellow friends on how you can make it better than it is..

Carpet cleaners are a bunch of cheapasses plan and simple.. Doyle from HydraMaster said they'd build a SS tank, but how many cleaner's would actually pay 3-4x what the aluminum tank costs? Didn't you b!tch about JonDon and it was a small part? :lol: Don't cry about spilt milk, clean it up and keep on truckin..
 

Dwain Ray

On Vacation
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
440
Location
Fort bragg California
Name
Dwain Ray
Why not build your own? I did , i needed a machine to do tile and grout cleaning. My 2000 steamgeni pto was and is still a highly reliable machine, but it's heat exchangers wouldn't handle the pressures and its installed in a 23 year old van. I went looking for a replacement what i found was for 35,000 i could get a great machine but it's life expectancy was about 10 years, replaceing a perfectly good 23 (20 at the time) year old machine with 1 that would only last 10 years rubbed me wrong. My supplier convinced me into building 1. I Took all i didn't like off my machine and replace it with better. When John DeLorean built his car he designed a body and the rest of the car was off the shelf parts i decided to take that route, first obstacle was the drive, i really didn't want to engineer that part, so a couple trips to trade shows i landed on butler but they wouldn't sell me the parts so i went to cleanco bought their frontend install kit modified the bushing for steamgenis larger diameter driveshaft, next was heat exchangers opted for cleanco's new high pressure ones and a hydramaster salsa unit for that little extra heat, got rid of steamgenis fill valve (always leaked) up graded the 45 blower to a 47, got rid of the 100 gallon waste tank went with a steamgeni 50 gallon stainless instead. Replaced aluminum vacuum relief with a custom built stainless, added a chemical pump instead of starvation system replaced every brass fitting with stainless replaced outer steel tins with stainless chose a powdercoat color as close to the dirt on my old machines waste tank so as to always appear clean wired 100% marine grade tined wire with delphi connections,installed it in a 2020 van and done . I have a very powerful highly reliable machine that is easy to maintain can be practically rebuild using a screwdriver, crescent wrench and a pair of pliers,(that's really not an exaggeration) and with reasonable maintenance should last 25 years. Also added waterpond comet waste pump custom crash screens , filter box and shelfing and a great lighting system, to hell with them over engineered pieces of crap their pushing on us, i say if you can do it find an older machine from the "golden years" like big red or something and if possible build your own youll be better off in the long run unless of course your so big that your tax advisor says you need to throw a shit load of money away or lose it to the government then by all means buy the crap out there . If your interested in seeing what ive built I'm always happy to show off Frankenstein and have over 500 pictures of the project

20190131_174531.jpg 20221108_170818.jpg 20221101_125018.jpg 20221101_184922.jpg 20221229_105658.jpg
 

BIG WOOD

MLPW
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
13,158
Location
Georgia
Name
Matt w.
Maybe you could switch over to padding.. You sound like a good candidate.. I know-a-guy who can hook you up with a shake-n-shine machine, just lmk..

You can either b!tch about it, or do something about it.. I like to b!tch and then MacGyver something to get the job done.......Then you brainstorm with fellow friends on how you can make it better than it is..

Carpet cleaners are a bunch of cheapasses plan and simple.. Doyle from HydraMaster said they'd build a SS tank, but how many cleaner's would actually pay 3-4x what the aluminum tank costs? Didn't you b!tch about JonDon and it was a small part? :lol: Don't cry about spilt milk, clean it up and keep on truckin..
As for Jondon’s latest scam… I called to get a quote on the ECU and besides their rediculous markup of $700 over what I paid, they said the ECU needs programmed from their tech and marked up another $300 just for that. Total lie. It already comes programmed from factory

I’m not cheap hula boy
 
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BIG WOOD

MLPW
Joined
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Messages
13,158
Location
Georgia
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Matt w.
Calling me cheap: the last 3 weeks, I’ve spent $9000 on spare van repairs, a new blower, fuel pumps and a ECU

The hell if I’m cheap
 
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BIG WOOD

MLPW
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
13,158
Location
Georgia
Name
Matt w.
Maybe you could switch over to padding.. You sound like a good candidate.. I know-a-guy who can hook you up with a shake-n-shine machine, just lmk..

You can either b!tch about it, or do something about it.. I like to b!tch and then MacGyver something to get the job done.......Then you brainstorm with fellow friends on how you can make it better than it is..

Carpet cleaners are a bunch of cheapasses plan and simple.. Doyle from HydraMaster said they'd build a SS tank, but how many cleaner's would actually pay 3-4x what the aluminum tank costs? Didn't you b!tch about JonDon and it was a small part? :lol: Don't cry about spilt milk, clean it up and keep on truckin..
As for Doyle from HM

His company is in a expensive ass state. Bs excuse on putting better quality components on their machines. The latest “big” Titan is a perfect example
 
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
9,345
Location
Hawaii
Name
Nate W.
I didn't say you were cheap, it's the average carpet cleaner is cheap hence the use of cheaper material.. Annnnddd before you get your panties in a twist, most things in our industry can be sourced from other industries.. I don't buy from JD because the shipping cost more than the products I wanted to order..
 
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Dwain Ray

On Vacation
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
440
Location
Fort bragg California
Name
Dwain Ray
In nate's defense, i have to agree to a certain degree, most carpet cleaners didn't grow up thinking one day they'd be a carpet cleaner many got into the business by "accident " they buy a piece of crap machine for a few hundred bucks and start raping customers you know um they want to make 250,000 a year on a 1,500 investment their the one's that give this industry a bad name fortunately they don't stick around but their like cockroaches step on one and a couple more crawl out,
 

srd

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
67
Coming from someone that has built and refurbished more machines than i can count it really doesnt cost that much more to go stainless (frame, lines, tanks, etc) not when you consider the headaches it would save
 

Nomad74

Boy Sprout
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
23,461
Location
Redding
Maybe if you weren't an idiot and used an inline filter, you wouldn't have these issues.
 

Dwain Ray

On Vacation
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
440
Location
Fort bragg California
Name
Dwain Ray
Calling me cheap: the last 3 weeks, I’ve spent $9000 on spare van repairs, a new blower, fuel pumps and a ECU

The hell if I’m cheap

Coming from someone that has built and refurbished more machines than i can count it really doesnt cost that much more to go stainless (frame, lines, tanks, etc) not when you consider the headaches it would save
I agree and disagree being a person who resently built one most stainless cost about double over steel or aluminum however anything that has to be machined can cost considerably more because of the time it takes to machine harder metals but when it comes to pipe and tubing your looking at 4x the cost of steel and fittings on average they cost 7 to 10 times more than brass i spent around 1,500 just for 1/4 &3/8 stainless fittings on Frankenstein however over the life of the machine if you consider down time for repairs it is a bargain because unlike brass aluminum and steel the stainless won't corrode it generally only fails due to metal fatigue .

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srd

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
67
People also need to understand paying retail vs wholesale granted stainless is more expensive but in the long run its just better.



Example when i built my punisher machine a 20ft stick of 2" square tubing was 120 for carbon steel, something like 280 for stainless. But another steel company was selling the same stainless for almost 500 a stick
 
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srd

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
67
I guess what im saying for what a machine costs right now it shouldnt have a bunch of carbon steel and brass on it. But that eats into manufacturers profit margines and cuts down on repair parts that get sold after, but i havent built a machine from scratch since covid/ biden so price may be crazy as hell now
 
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Dwain Ray

On Vacation
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
440
Location
Fort bragg California
Name
Dwain Ray
I think that you should have a choice, kinda like cars, if youre willing to pay more you get the ss and if not you get regular, problem with machines these days, is having engineers on the payroll is like the government having lawmakers if you dont keep re-engineering your out of a job, and if lawmakers don't keep making new laws their out of a job
 

BIG WOOD

MLPW
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
13,158
Location
Georgia
Name
Matt w.
Why not build your own? I did , i needed a machine to do tile and grout cleaning. My 2000 steamgeni pto was and is still a highly reliable machine, but it's heat exchangers wouldn't handle the pressures and its installed in a 23 year old van. I went looking for a replacement what i found was for 35,000 i could get a great machine but it's life expectancy was about 10 years, replaceing a perfectly good 23 (20 at the time) year old machine with 1 that would only last 10 years rubbed me wrong. My supplier convinced me into building 1. I Took all i didn't like off my machine and replace it with better. When John DeLorean built his car he designed a body and the rest of the car was off the shelf parts i decided to take that route, first obstacle was the drive, i really didn't want to engineer that part, so a couple trips to trade shows i landed on butler but they wouldn't sell me the parts so i went to cleanco bought their frontend install kit modified the bushing for steamgenis larger diameter driveshaft, next was heat exchangers opted for cleanco's new high pressure ones and a hydramaster salsa unit for that little extra heat, got rid of steamgenis fill valve (always leaked) up graded the 45 blower to a 47, got rid of the 100 gallon waste tank went with a steamgeni 50 gallon stainless instead. Replaced aluminum vacuum relief with a custom built stainless, added a chemical pump instead of starvation system replaced every brass fitting with stainless replaced outer steel tins with stainless chose a powdercoat color as close to the dirt on my old machines waste tank so as to always appear clean wired 100% marine grade tined wire with delphi connections,installed it in a 2020 van and done . I have a very powerful highly reliable machine that is easy to maintain can be practically rebuild using a screwdriver, crescent wrench and a pair of pliers,(that's really not an exaggeration) and with reasonable maintenance should last 25 years. Also added waterpond comet waste pump custom crash screens , filter box and shelfing and a great lighting system, to hell with them over engineered pieces of crap their pushing on us, i say if you can do it find an older machine from the "golden years" like big red or something and if possible build your own youll be better off in the long run unless of course your so big that your tax advisor says you need to throw a shit load of money away or lose it to the government then by all means buy the crap out there . If your interested in seeing what ive built I'm always happy to show off Frankenstein and have over 500 pictures of the project

View attachment 120586 View attachment 120587 View attachment 120588 View attachment 120589 View attachment 120590
When are you gonna produce more of these? Can you find an investor to partner with you?
 

Dwain Ray

On Vacation
Joined
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Messages
440
Location
Fort bragg California
Name
Dwain Ray
If or When i need another one.the problem with building something for sale you have to warranty it and sometimes warranty others stupidity , you build a machine, install it in a new van and the dipshit runs it with no oil and burns up the engine who pays?
now firmly in my 60's I'd rathet have something no one else has than what little money id get for it, however willing to help others do it for themselves
 

FredC

Village Idiot
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
26,227
I was considering getting a rebuild kit for my TI410, but they were a year out on back order. Douchebag move you guys pulled on that.


did you have a part # on that? Only chart I found showed the same service kit across the TL406/408/410 range but I don't know how accurate that is

if it is the same excelsior has Overhaul Kit 300GYC6010 for $378 and 7-10 days on the quote they sent me.......but it only says (406/408)

quote.jpg
 

BIG WOOD

MLPW
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
13,158
Location
Georgia
Name
Matt w.
did you have a part # on that? Only chart I found showed the same service kit across the TL406/408/410 range but I don't know how accurate that is

if it is the same excelsior has Overhaul Kit 300GYC6010 for $378 and 7-10 days on the quote they sent me.......but it only says (406/408)

View attachment 120621
I never looked up the part number. I was talking to the same blower company on the phone in Memphis who you have posted above that I’ve purchased from in the past
 
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greencc

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Messages
37
Location
california
Name
gary
Matt, i hope you get all this stuff sorted out...you seem like a good guy. TM are made to fit in a van and leave as much space as possible for other things. They are also meant to be used and then sold so a new machine can be bought. I doubt very many industries build machines that are shorted and not able to live up to potential. Engine exhaust being choked down for heat is one example. Blowers not running fast to keep noise down so a big real silencer doesnt have to be used.

There is one company that doesn't think this way and that is aerotech. Vlad the engineer did this on purpose. I've talked to him five or six times and he is very strict with how he does things. you will never get a machine like that from anyone else. The truck itself tells you a lot and has lots of room. it was made for dual wand and can seat 3 people in front. the waste tank is round and stainless. lots of heat and suck and a great billboard also.

You can lease it for five years and then make a payment to own it outright. But the AT willl last you at least 10 years if not more. You said you paid 9000 dollars, well that would take care of six months of aerotech payments. Life is too short to not have equipment that you you need for your business. Sell all your machines and old equipment and start fresh, I dont think you will ever regret it.
 
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BIG WOOD

MLPW
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13,158
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Georgia
Name
Matt w.
You can lease it for five years and then make a payment to own it outright. But the AT willl last you at least 10 years if not more. You said you paid 9000 dollars, well that would take care of six months of aerotech payments. Life is too short to not have equipment that you you need for your business. Sell all your machines and old equipment and start fresh, I dont think you will ever regret it.
I'm seriously considering this route
 

Mike J

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Feb 21, 2022
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East
Name
Mike Joannides
Just a thought, Is there any coralation between garage kept truck mounts not having as many issues as truck mounts parked outside? I haven't had issues like the ones I hear on the board with mine in my career. Hydramaster, Prochem, and Blueline. I do the regular oil changes and grease fittings, once in a while a small component gives me a hassle.
I know garage kept classic autos are more common than keeping outside. Just thinking that a stable climate may have helped me out since mine are always kept inside garage that is insulated.
Is there more issues in states that have enormous temperature swings and non garaged, compared to states that are warm year round? (KNOCK, KNOCK,KNOCK)
 

BIG WOOD

MLPW
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Feb 4, 2016
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Georgia
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Matt w.
That I don't know. I've never had the benefit to keep my units in a garage. I think Fred made a solid point on my other thread with slide-ins compared to PTO units being much cooler in the area where the ECU, water pump, and blower are.

I'm really considering switching over once I get these kinks worked out on these machines
 

Dwain Ray

On Vacation
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
440
Location
Fort bragg California
Name
Dwain Ray
If you're considering pto's over slide in, heat is a consideration, i bought an entire fleet of steamgeni pto's from a company in Sacramento, the 2 problems that most of them had in common was due to #1 lack of maintenance and #2 heat . When the machines are running the vans engine rpm is at the equivalent of approximately 35mph however 35mph winds are not moving threw and underneath the van as designed . In Sacramento where these machines came from it reaches 100-110° during the summer common problems with vans were burnt spark plug wires brittle wiring harnesses, power steering and hydraboost leaks and failures fuel system problems and shorten transmission life span etc etc. I however live on the coast my shop within site of the ocean advantage year round temperature about 59° and highs around 72° in the summer not so much of a problem. When building Frankenstein and designing to eliminate future problems a few modifications were made to the van to address the potential heat issue #1 insulation on spark plug wires#2 removal of power steering under van pipe and replaceing it with factory severe duty cooler and also adding additional aftermarket power steering cooler with filter lastly adding severe duty transmission cooler. Adding these things at the time of pto installation has greatly reduced the under hood heating problems and i highly recommended anyone considering buying or that owns a pto to do these simple modifications it'll save you alot of money and eliminate alot of future downtime. These modifications i do where temps are low and find more and more important the hotter it gets outside you guys with the leaky power steering systems probly already know what im talking about anyway it's a thought ounce of prevention is definitely worth a pound of cure

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Cleanworks

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New Westminster,BC
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Ron Marriott
I believe that Butler does some factory modifications to keep the engine a little cooler. My experience is mainly with Hydramasters and Cleancos. Temperatures here can get up into the 90's in the summer at times but average in the 70-80 degree range. Never had engine problems due to running a pto unit. My Cleanco has 340,000 kilometers on it and 6000 hours. Still runs like a champ.
 
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