My Apex will only run in the override position..

dgardner

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Yes, the white wires are connected..

By white, do you mean white red and white green?

According to the schematic connecting those two wires will light the tank full light and stop the machine - to make it run you have to connect the white/red wire with the green wire and leave the white/green wire open (not connected).
 

dgardner

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Like this:
ApexBypass.jpg
 

Able 1

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Damn Dan, I don't need pictures!!














But I appreciate them..
 

Able 1

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I think you are on to it Dan.. I don't think it will run without the pump clutch though(sitting on my bench). Wrong wires were connected.. I was advised to connect those two..
 
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dgardner

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Not having the pump clutch wired won't prevent the engine from running, you just (obviously) won't be able to engage the pump.
 

SamIam

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Quick test for pump clutch turn machine to on position turn water pump on and off should hear aloud click when pump clutch engages!

I had 2 problems heat exchanger was staying on and pump clutch wire was broke so it wouldn't stay on unless you held over ride switch.

I don't no how the Apex is wired or its heat system
 

Able 1

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BIG THANKS to Jim Martin and Shane T!!!!

Jim walked me through it with patients(I imagine he learned from phone calls from Marty).

High temp sensor is bad just grounded it till I get a new one.
1436725628294.jpg
1436725628294.jpg
 

dgardner

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Jim, I don't want to argue with you, but in the interest of accurate information I will make this one last post.

See the partial schematic below with my colored markings.

The shutdown relay terminal 85 gets 12V from the engine circuit breaker. This is one side of the relay coil (my blue wire). The other side of the coil, terminal 86, goes to the oil pressure switch then the engine temp switch. If EITHER the temp switch or the oil pressure switch switches to ground the relay coil will be energized.

Now, when the coil is energized terminal 30 (common) is connected to terminal 87 (normally open). if the waste tank is not full then terminal 30 has 12V on it (my red wire from the breaker through the float switch to the relay terminal 30). This means terminal 87 will become hot. As you can see terminal 87 is connected to the check engine light.

With the relay thus energized, terminal 87A (normally closed) is not hot. If you follow 87A out it goes to the fuel pump and engine coil pack. It's the one that has to be hot for the unit to run but under this scenario it's cold.

So, if the high temp switch completes the circuit to ground, energizing the relay, the result is a check engine light illuminated and the wire to the fuel pump and coil pack is dead. This is exactly opposite from what Keith describes any way you look at it.

Further, look at the way the temp switch and oil pressure switch is wired together. Note that either one can ground pin 30. So, if what you say is true, and the temp switch grounds the circuit to run the unit then look closely - if the oil pressure switch grounds then the circuit will be grounded no matter what the temp switch does. If there is enough oil pressure then the temp switch would not be able to shut the unit down, and vice-versa - if the temp switch is made then the circuit is grounded and the oil pressure switch would not work if there was a loss of pressure.

Any way you look at it, the schematic is drawn such that if either the temp switch OR the oil pressure switch makes the relay will be energized, lighting the check engine light and shutting down the unit.

Now, if someone had accidentally switched the wires between 87 and 87A the unit would work as you described. The wire to the temperature switch would have to be grounded for the unit to run - BUT - that means the oil pressure switch would no longer function.

A quick test for Keith to do (and he should) would be to pull the wire off the oil pressure switch and see if the engine stops, leaving the through-connection to the temp switch intact. If it doesn't stop that way, he should try jumpering it to ground. One or the other should kill the engine.

If the oil pressure switch does kill the engine with the temp switch connection grounded as Keith has it now then it just means the actual wiring does not match the schematic.

If the oil pressure switch has no effect then there is something miswired on the unit (as I suspect).

I normally would just let this go, but there is a good chance Keith's oil pressure switch may not be working and could cause him big trouble if there is a loss of pressure and it fails to work as it should.

Jim, I know you can read the schematic and it just doesn't match with grounding the temp switch to make the unit run.

End of rant.... :dejection:

ApexWiringIssue.jpg


basicrelay.jpg
 
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Jim Martin

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that's fine..but from what I am reading it is right on..and it is what I went by to solve it..

my first clue as the word switch..not sensor or sending unit...my secound clue was being able to over ride the shut down relay and it starts up

so I went by that exact same wiring diagram and went wire by wire had him touching a 12 volt probe to each thing until I figured out exactly what the problem was...

and according to the schematic..it was the only logical place to go...from there I already knew how a relay worked and that #86 became a coil ground.. so the logical way to test that was to ground the high temp switch and it fired right up the way it was supposed to...

from this point I have no clue what to tell you...the machine runs exactly the way it is supposed to and the problem is solved......:rockon:
 

GeneMiller

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I love guys who read all that stuff. I just get out the meter and go to town. I can usually find the problem in less than an hour. Hurts my brain to read all the wring diagram, even though I can. I admire both of you.

Gene
 

dgardner

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Yup. It's what I do pretty much every day at my corporate day job, so it's kind of second nature to me. The problem comes if the actual wiring doesn't match the diagram - then you have to first figure out what the last guy did different - I hate that..... :biggrin:
 
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Jim Martin

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I love guys who read all that stuff. I just get out the meter and go to town. I can usually find the problem in less than an hour. Hurts my brain to read all the wring diagram, even though I can. I admire both of you.

Gene

its not as hard as it looks...the problem is that you have to get on the phone with people and walk through each thing...because not everyone understands how to read one and what to look for things can be a bit confusing on both ends trying to do it over the internet...and it makes it way more complicated then it needs to be...

I went through the schematic and followed each wire and asked him to try different things while I was on the phone..machine was running in 20/30 minutes...it was a lot less complicated..I followed the drawing...he followed my directions very well...and now it is running...

that's all that matters.....
 
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Able 1

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Shit ,I don't want either of you guys to be wrong thanks for putting this much thought into it.. I wanted to do some more testing but..
1436837532777.jpg

I did disconnect the oil pressure switch and it didn't do anything.. I grounded it before and nothing but the high temp switch was still connected.

When I bought this TM the breakers were recently changed on two of the circuits(pump out and solution pump), that was 3,000 hours ago and I haven't changed a thing..

Weird thing about how it is running now is the fuel pump pumps when it's not in the override position, which it never did that before..

My guys used it today and didn't have any problems (and made me $700:rockon:)..
 

Jim Martin

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right or wrong is not my goal..I am not in competition with anyone..getting you running is what it was....
glad to here it is running right and making you money..
 
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dgardner

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I don't want either of you guys to be wrong
Right or wrong is not important - getting it working is - especially working correctly with all safeties intact.

The oil pressure switch not working is as I suspected - just be sure to check the oil!
 
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dgardner

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And I suspect that when you replace the 'bad' temp switch, and remove your temporary ground wire the machine will quit again....
 

Able 1

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Looking over the wire diagram that picture I posted of the red wires.. I instead of going from the ignition switch with each wire it looks like they jump from breaker to breaker is that a problem?
 

Able 1

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Either way the temp switch had to be replaced I cracked the plastic..:redface:
 

Jim Martin

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And I suspect that when you replace the 'bad' temp switch, and remove your temporary ground wire the machine will quit again....

seeing how the 2 are linked together..that may be possible...but at the point in time that we were going over it there was no since in taking it to much further and complicating it more......it started the way it needed to and does not have to go into over ride mode to run...if by chance it does then all he has to do is ground the oil switch and order another...its running the way it should so IMO..it is best to just take it a little at a time and not make it so confusing.... at least it is on the right track and making money again...
 
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Jim Martin

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Looking over the wire diagram that picture I posted of the red wires.. I instead of going from the ignition switch with each wire it looks like they jump from breaker to breaker is that a problem?

one wire from the bottom of the ignition switch ( the IGN post ) up to the 15 amp then loops to the 20 amp and then loops to the other 15 amp is fine the way it is on the drawing......
 
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