"Delivers the hottest temps in the industry

Loren Egland

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Loren Egland
...even when HOT Water Power Washing and maintains those temps." August 2008 ICS Magazine

Now I am sure the Thermalwave II Vortec and the other truckmonts by Blueline are fine heat exchange slide in truck mounts, but isn't this statement a little over the top?

I know the Steam Way Powermatic and 4100 are not being made anymore, but did they forget about other equipment such as the El Diablo?

If they want to make this claim, I might believe it if this statement was qualified by comparing it only to other slide in heat exchange models, but they didn't.

Ouch!
 

MicahR

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I'll get you in touch with one of my customers running a Bluewave after using Powermatics for 20 years.

This guy knows Powermatics inside and out and after working on his main unit constantly we finally got him into a different machine.

Like any other Steamway diehard he was VERY skeptical about a heat exchange machine.

He's blown away by the heat put out by this machine.

Everytime he comes in the store he thanks us for getting him into something else. Not only isn't he working on his machine all the time he has all the heat his Powermatic had.

Not bad for a heat x-change unit.

For all those sceptical p.m. me and I'll get you his contact info.
 

TimP

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They will keep 230 ATM running 12 flow constant. At least that's what has been stated. They updated their heat exchangers on the thermalwave 2. Sounds impressive to me but I don't know if it's the best on the market. Maybe in it's class of heat exchange machines.....
 

packfancjh

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I have Adam coming to my shop Sept 5th for a demo day and BBQ, I'll see what tests we can put it the Thermalwave II through.
 

vincent

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Vincent Sapp
The twave is not that hot. I ran it at cad day in st.louis. Another overhyped machine and overpriced too.
 

Mike Draper

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If I can remember correctly, the El-Diablo temp gauge is installed right next to the blower exhaust. No wonder it shows 300 at the machine. Cheaters..... :x
 

Dolly Llama

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Larry Capitoni
wait a minute, i'm coRnfuzed.

Loren is talking about a ThermalWave, but Micha mentioned a Bluewave
I don't know about BW, but a local mentor went from a Powermatic to a Thermalwave.
He's happy with the TW, but says it doesn't make near the heat as his PM did.

Maybe BlueLine has stepped it up a FEW notches since then, cause I KNOW they were never known for scorching heat in the last few years.

..L.T.A.
 

hogjowl

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Just remember this ... this is the BB we're all talking to each other on, and the views expressed here often have no basis on fact or reality.

It's a real world out there, but not in here.
 

TimP

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Remember what I said earlier. They changed the heat exchange system on the thermal wave 2 within the last 6 months. You can't compare what it used to get with what it gets now. I suggest you guys test it and find out...I haven't but I'm just saying what I read. And I remembered it cause I was impressed with the number cause the thermal wave 2 had crap for heat before in my opinion.
 

Walt

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Tom Fielding was here in Portland several weeks ago with a Thermal Wave II. It may be the hottest slide in yet. While running a single wand it pegged the temp gauge. At 3000 psi with a pressure washing lance it didn't drop much below 230 from what I could tell.

The local dealer of Prochem, admitted that it out performed the new Everest in every test they through at it. They checked both machines with a "lie detector" at the wand.

A very nice machine indeed.
 

Mike Draper

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I couldn't really see how it's hotter than AT or V. The HX's in those babies are huge and you just can't put a huge HX in a slide in like you can in the AT or V. That's what delivers the constant heat in those big units rather than a peak temp and a drop.
 

rhyde

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rhyde
It’s the same crap every year our TM is quieter, ours get’s hotter

A suggestion! All the Tm’s going to be in the back lot at connections for people to fondle just itching to be tested so I’m suggesting a panel should be formed with the most knowledgeable TM guys on the board (that rules me out) for a “mikey’s board review” of TM at connections.

Test them all post the results here and the ones that won’t let you test post that here too
 

Walt

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I couldn't say as to if it is hotter than a V/AT. Tom said he was getting V like temps out of the slide in. And He should know. I didn't question him on it, to see if he really meant it. I would imagine that it would probably keep up single wanding but not dual wanding based upon the size of the heat exchangers.

I rented the Prochem Everest for the day and was pretty impressed with the over all heat (ran in dual wand mode with one wand - .12 flow). However, it would spike really hot, hissing and spitting and then drop down to normal. I hate spiking, so I think that the Thermal Wave II would be a better machine since it has better control of heat and more of it.
 
F

FB7777

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just don't put hAroLd in charge... he'll just complicate the crap out of the process and deliver the results in 2012
 

Greenie

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I haven't got a dog in this fight, but one thing I've learned, it's not hard to get high heat from just about any unit, it's managing that heat, and maintaining those heat exchangers and their associated sensors, solenoids and divertors, all that glitters may not be gold, dependability is number one, followed by performance in my book.
 
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We're pleased with our new hi-heat Butler. 240 held with one wand or RX. (We do put warmish water in our h20 tanks making it easier for hx ers to achieve hi temps.
 

Duane Oxley

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Duane Oxley
All of this talk of temperature without a mention of actual flow rate is flawed at best. If you want quoted figures to actually mean something, you'll have to get a lot more specific:

There's no industry standard for heat claims by a manufacturer. As a result, there are all sorts of claims, that, ultimately, can't really be compared to each other. I want to change that. And with that in mind, I propose the following, which I will be using:

500 PSI ATW, through a #6 jet, measured at 100 feet, weighted for input temperature, and run two ways- full on, with no recovery time, and 8 seconds on / 8 seconds off, with the vacuum relief set at 10" of lift and the system running at 3,400 RPM, after 5 minutes of operation. For comparison's sake, systems will be monitored at the machine (i.e. a temperature gauge on the system outlet) and at the wand (a gauge at the wand valve).

To explain what I mean by the above:

1.) There is pressure loss at the end of a 1/4" hose, of about 200 PSI. So, the pressure at the machine is no real indication of the pressure at the wand. Yet the pressure at the wand (at the jet, to be most accurate...) is the only true indication of flow rate, besides holding the wand over a 5- gal. bucket and timing it with a stop watch.

2.) As much as everyone here is into high flow, the vast majority of the industry is not. The reason is simple: Most carpet cleaners do not frequent carpet cleaning boards. (In talking with the ones I know, less than 1/2 are even on the Internet.) That being the case, a jet size that more accurately represents what the majority of carpet cleaners use is important. It's still not uncommon to find wands with #4 jet size equivalents as standard issue with HX systems. I've always used #6, and will continue to do so.

3.) 100 feet of hose allows for a realistic amount of heat loss along the way. I'll state what kind of hose is used as well. (It will be Blue Neptune, BTW...) It also should be not "live". Being on a live reel requires some distance to connect to the reel, altering the stated distance. And, if any is left on the reel, it will act as an insulator for the layers deeper in the coil. (To be useful, the type of hose used and the ambient temperature would have to be stated.)

4.) The input temperature will be measured (from the water source), and output temperature (at the machine outlet, using an external, calibrated gauge), as well as the temperature at the wand. This allows a true indication of what the heat output can be.

(In other words, such a figure won't be, "200 degrees, at the wand", etc. Instead it will be, "140 degrees rise over the incoming temperature, at x GPM".) This will allow people to know what to expect at a given input temperature (i.e., add the "X" degree figure. In the above, 140 degrees, to the input. So, if the input is 65, add 140 to it. If the input is 45, add 140 to that.)

In order to put the information into conventional terms that won't alienate people, "conventional" readings at the machine (i.e., 220 degrees ATM, @ 600 PSI, through a #6 jet) will also be given.

5.) Constant trigger of the wand with no recovery time will indicate the least temperature you can expect. It's just a constant flow through the system with no time to sit and gather more heat, before being sent to the wand.

8 seconds on / 8 seconds off, is a more real- world way to evaluate, since it's more like the wand- key cycles that most people are likely to use.


6.) Blower strain on the system makes a difference in output temperature. I want to figure it in, yet be conservative. 10" does it for me.

7.) Without an RPM, all of the above is meaningless, because RPM means as much as blower load, in terms of available exhaust heat. The reason is that the CFM of the motor increases with RPM, and as it does, so does BTU's.

8.) And lastly, a "warm up period" should be allowed. This is because it takes time for the heat sources to come up to full temperature. I'm going to use 5 minutes as the time for this. But I'm also going to measure at 10, to ensure that 5 is enough.



So, with the above figures at your disposal, you'll know exactly what to expect, in terms of performance, whether you want it in terms you're used to (the ones every other manufacturer uses... ("ATM"), or ones that actually give you a picture of how the system performs, with all variables accounted for ("ATW").


Try doing the above at Connections...
 

Loren Egland

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Loren Egland
I assume that these testing parameters are for heat exchange machines only due to needing warm up times, 8 seconds on 8 seconds off, vacuum at 10', and so forth.

Water warm up with fuel fired systems do not require machine warm up since that is separate.

Flow fired systems only heat when the wand is triggered, so the 8 second cycle would be an advantage only for other systems to keep heat.

Vacuum settings do not effect the heating system of fuel fired heaters.

I might suggest a different cycling that gives fewer seconds for off. I am just thinking about my strokes when cleaning. The off cycle is much shorter than the on cycle.
 

Duane Oxley

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Hey, Loren...

Yes, those parameters are with HX in mind.

I'm well aware of flow- fired, secondary fuel systems. I've built them exclusively for 11 years.

But HX is 80% of the market now, and we need some kind of standard for heat claims. Those are the ones I came up with.
 

Dolly Llama

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Larry Capitoni
Duane Oxley said:
and we need some kind of standard for heat claims.


simple is better.
why not do it like Steamway always has

X sustained temp @ Y gpm

SW's fuel fired burner sustains 250 @ 2.1gpm.

isn't that much simpler and easier?
No psi, no hose lengths, no "this jet or that jet", no duty cycle to clutter up the the numbers

the only numbers we need are tap water temp, and sustained temps @ 2gpm

easy and pie

..L.T.A.
 

Duane Oxley

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Duane Oxley
It's okay if you're satisfied with general info. But what happens if the input temperature on the SW was 45 degrees? Is that flow rate over a period of time that can be verified, or is it just "assumed" that the flow is as stated, even if the trigger is only pulled for a short duration for "test purposes".

Yes, SteamWay (and Vortex and my old company) were the only ones that actually mentioned flow rate when output temperature was stated. And that was definitely a step in the right direction. (My standard has long been 600 PSI, ATM, through a #6 jet or equivalent. But, as you can see from the above, even that standard isn't precise.)

But, to be as precise as possible, it would best be stated as "X degrees of increase over the input temperature, at X GPM".

It would be great to see an industry standard of some kind set. But I have a feeling that too many are hiding behind the "smoke" of inaccurate figures, to agree on such a thing.

The more precise the standard is, the more you really know what the system is delivering.

And besides, once a standard is set, all you need to know is how many degrees rise the system delivers at a given flow. You don't have to be concerned with warm- up time, jet size, if it's measured ATW or ATM, etc. The very idea of "rise" dictates that the measurement is at the highest point- ATM.
 

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