10" CRB Sale

Bob Pruitt

Member
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
2,677
Location
earth
Name
Robert Pruitt
So what is the smallest size for the better made CRB's ? Smallest Pro Version I guess. I don't see how I could use a 10 inch now that I know it will fall apart if I'm not super careful...
 

Mikey P

Administrator
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
114,331
Location
The High Chapperal
oh good lord...

Gear box..

ZDkV-PZorSVtFyRSRWs4T6BI-h3OUrOi_sAqhyaE6BZsw35NT0MsSZ3gIwYI-iE7JU9KCmPGNFA=w508-h902-no.jpg



While not sealed I just can't see pre spray getting in there unless a careless tech used a HF to wash it down at the end of the job/day

20161014_173343.jpg


Only open areas I can see where possible splashing could get in but all the guts and motor are up high, so again, the corrosive liquid would have to be sprayed in there, while the machine was upside down..



Arrows pointing to areas where liquids could get in.. But not during cleaning...

20161014_173328.jpg







So I applied this stuff to the two areas that COULD potentially cause an issue, if you were using the tool to scrub walls or ceilings..

xu4gMUdQ1BBNXmo6ZzeHtNfPvdYEBOdpwIfjzPSkTcp0VW-CPmHoXF4w9XOqovqs5hLAt4K45PRlB1UgOA=w1603-h902-no.jpg



Wpr1kkC0Yo8YBZcItyV94_FfrE5ub_EOqGlkRxYXBxarEynZ6z2QaFGFhgj4phh80o5hnV0CK9Q=w605-h902-no.jpg






Reg and or Steve can you point out were you saw the corrosion?
 
Last edited:

encapman

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
2,276
Location
St Petersburg, FL
Name
Rick Gelinas
So what is the smallest size for the better made CRB's ? Smallest Pro Version I guess. I don't see how I could use a 10 inch now that I know it will fall apart if I'm not super careful...

No, the 10" machine doesn't require that you're "super careful". A little bit of practical maintenance to the machine is definitely beneficial; but it's not excessive. These machines have a very solid track record! Whittaker has sold the TM models of these Rotowash built machines from Austria for decades, and they've been solid work horses. A number of folks on this forum have been using them for a long time too, and can relate their experience regarding the machine's quality. The thing that caused a problem with this particular machine is that salt residue worked its way inside the housing so corrosion damaged the steel surfaces. This is not something we're normally seeing with the units that are in the market. In fact it's the first time I've ever heard of this. So I don't think the sky is falling. These machines normally provide years of service. Instead this seems to be isolated to the usage of one particular detergent.
 

Mikey P

Administrator
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
114,331
Location
The High Chapperal
I'm not pointing fingers at Steve and his crew but I could so easily see a knuckleheaded chimp spraying a room down with pre spray and being too lazy to move the CRB out of the way..
 

dgardner

Moderator
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
5,109
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Name
Dan Gardner
This was a situation where extensive metal corrosion resulted in bearing failure
The gears were not at issue, it was the bearings on the lower gears that drive the brushes that had seized and could not be extracted from the side plate.

There are ball bearings here (four places). They are covered by metal shields, but they are just shields, not seals. Under the right circumstances, say if solution had accumulated between the shield and the bearing inside, and then you pressure-rinsed the brushes, I could see how the chemical could be driven inside the bearing(s), eventually corroding them and eventually seizing, in turn causing gear failure. These are the areas pointed out by our intrepid mechanic where failure occurred, I believe:

crbFail.jpg
 

regarossa

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
88
Location
Greenville SC
Name
Reg Rogers
Your machine looks like it's been taken care of Mike. Gears look fine and I see no evidence of any corrosion. Keep doing whatever your doing



So can a silicone or rubber gasket be applied to keep out those pesky
oh good lord...

Gear box..

View attachment 18724


While not sealed I just can't see pre spray getting in there unless a careless tech used a HF to wash it down at the end of the job/day

View attachment 18717

Only open areas I can see where possible splashing could get in but all the guts and motor are up high, so again, the corrosive liquid would have to be sprayed in there, while the machine was upside down..



Arrows pointing to areas where liquids could get in.. But not during cleaning...

View attachment 18725






So I applied this stuff to the two areas that COULD potentially cause an issue, if you were using the tool to scrub walls or ceilings..

View attachment 18720


View attachment 18722





Reg and or Steve can you point out were you saw the corrosion?
 

rick imby

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
2,206
Location
Montana
Name
Rick
There are things that employees do to make their life simple (in their mind) when the boss is not around that often do not make sense.

This appears to be an isolated incident.

I would look closely at the tech's procedures that was using this machine all the time. He maybe has a different procedure like spraying and agitating at the same time that gets a lot more chemical on his machine.

I had an employee that was having tires blow up on him at least a couple times a week. As loud as 45 acp going off in a small room, it hurts. It turns out he did not know how to read the gauge and was putting 10 atmospheres in the tires instead of 100 pounds. All of us were using the same compressor and gauge--only he was having tires blow often.
 

Mikey P

Administrator
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
114,331
Location
The High Chapperal
Fyi
STPP is used in many pre sprays in this industry, not just Procyon.
It's a great natural surfactant for lightly soiled carpets of all types.

I certainly won't stop using it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lee Stockwell

Mikey P

Administrator
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
114,331
Location
The High Chapperal
Spray these areas with WD40 or it's equivalent every time you put the brush rolls back in


Saiger and I have both experienced the nightmare of having the axle rod get stuck in the receiving end..

crbfail-jpg.18727.jpg
 

Cleanworks

Moderator
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
27,426
Location
New Westminster,BC
Name
Ron Marriott
everything we use is corrosive, acids, alkalines, salts. Maintenance is the key, not just wiping down things, but washing and drying them.
 

rick imby

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
2,206
Location
Montana
Name
Rick
Are the bearings not sealed bearings?!

The classic belief that a rubber/plastic washer rubbing against another surface gives you a seal. In protected areas they work ok but where these bearings are located you could double seal them and still in time you would get penetration with the chemicals these tools are sloshing around in. Almost a better way to do it is leave an open bearing and spray it down with a heavy lube regularly. WD 40 is great for keeping a bit of a coat on a metal surface but will penetrate through "sealed" bearings and break down the grease.

But one OCD guy that loves to post videos that uses the heck out of his 10" machine and gets them to last over 5 years suggests that is the direction I would go. Regular hits with WD 40.
 

encapman

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
2,276
Location
St Petersburg, FL
Name
Rick Gelinas
Rick Imby, like you, I've spent many years working with and riding bicycles. I worked in several bike shops as a mechanic and as a store manager when I was young. And like you, I understand a little about bearings, seals, and WD40. It's all just basic mechanical stuff. What you said is spot on - WD40 will dissolve grease. It will penetrate and liquify bearing grease; even sealed bearings. WD40 is great for displacing moisture, coating metal surfaces, and providing a lightweight lubricant. But it should never be exposed to bearings.
 

encapman

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
2,276
Location
St Petersburg, FL
Name
Rick Gelinas
Heck of a thread you started here Rick...

I know a lot of motorcyclists who use WD as chain lube..

That would be a lightweight choice for a chain lube. Chain lube is normally heavier than that. Cable lubrication on a motorcycle or bicycle with WD40 would be fine. Lubricating break calipers or derailleurs on a bicycle with WD40 is great. It's great for squeaky hinges. I've even used it to improve connections on electrical contacts. But WD40 is a lightweight lubricant. Chains and bearings require a heavier lube than what WD40 can provide IMHO.

P.S. It's also excellent for removing adhesives - even in carpet, (but total removal of the WD40 from the fiber is required after using it).
 

realclean

Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Messages
429
Location
Bossier City, LA
Name
Jesse Lowe
So that bearing is not replaceable?

What should be the correct cleaning procedure for this unit?

I too would have a problem with something that cost as much as that unit does and would expect it to be tougher then that.
 

dgardner

Moderator
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
5,109
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Name
Dan Gardner
I like Mikey's idea of using WD40 to prevent the axles from getting stuck, but agree with Rick that soaking the bearing with it could wash out the grease and shorten the bearing life. Instead of spraying the bearing area I would spray the axle itself. That way you get a film of WD between the axle and the bore it runs in without the danger of soaking the bearing.

Back in the late 70's I worked in a shop and was responsible for maintaining the tools and machinery, including a big old steam cleaner. The boiler feed pump used an exposed cam and crankshaft run at low speed. Chug, chug, chug.... each time injecting water into the boiler. The crank used a typical sealed radial ball bearing like we are talking about, although it was larger in diameter, maybe 2" OD. It had run for almost a year, the whole time I had been there, without issues. One day the bearing failed and I replaced it. A week later it failed again. Another week, and if failed yet again. I replaced that stupid bearing 5 or 6 times until I figured out the issue. After the first failure, the machine operator decided that it needed to be "lubed" each day, so every morning before he started the machine up he would squirt WD40 at the bearing. Good grief. After I confiscated his can of WD the failures stopped.

Bearings depend on a "wedge" of lubricant between the contact surfaces (think surfer riding a wave or a car hydroplaning over a flooded road). At low speeds it takes a very thick lubricant, such as grease, to maintain this wedge. As the speeds increase the lubricant can be thinner (oil) to maintain the wedge, and is used because the grease would run too hot at those speeds. But many greased bearings are good to over 20,000 rpm, and when the speeds increase to the point that oil is used it's still way thicker than WD40. At the low speeds we are talking about here, WD40 is way too thin to maintain the wedge inside the bearing. You have metal-to-metal contact, and the bearing won't last as long as it should.

It may be fine for cycle chains, but for sealed ball bearings, not so much.
 

regarossa

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
88
Location
Greenville SC
Name
Reg Rogers
I'm pretty sure the bearing is replaceable.


Yes the bearing is replaceable. In this case the bearings could not be extracted from the side plate, which then caused the entire side plate to be replaced. Rarely does this occur but the corrosion was such that the bearings would not come out. (And we have many tricks to make a bearing give up the struggle)
 

rick imby

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
2,206
Location
Montana
Name
Rick
So Dan,
Thank you a ton, I have never heard the Wedge lube theory---absolutely awesome.

Mikey, Motorcycle vs Bicycle chain lube is exactly as Dan said. The lube for motorcycles is much thicker to stay on the chain at higher speed and to have a thicker Wedge.

I would only use WD on a bicycle or motorcycle chain I was about to replace to get rid of the squeak so I could ride it back to the shop.

WD displaces water AND the lube that is already there.

Dirt motorcyclists seem to be the most common users of WD on their bike chain as a lot of them use WD to clean the outside of their dirty bikes. ---horrible to use WD on a bike chain.

Chain technology has been focused on in the bicycle industry because we are working with 1/20 th of a horsepower and trying to go as fast as possible with tiny energy input.

The chain is far and away THE most efficient method of transferring energy. But they wear themselves and the gears they run on rapidly. The stretch is easy to measure in a bicycle chain and once the chain stretches a little bit they wear the gears rapidly. Especially small gears--the smaller ones in back and the smaller ones up front.

Motorcyclists get away with bad chain care because energy loss is not a problem, you are not moving the chain from cog to cog regularly like on a bike.

I know this is too long a post for Bama Hogwarts to read..
 
  • Like
Reactions: SCC

Mikey P

Administrator
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
114,331
Location
The High Chapperal
So it was just the brush roll axle bearings that failed on Steve's unit?


I wish you and he would have told me that.

There aint diddly one can do about getting pre spray in there..

I wonder how The Little Ivan is set up in that area... Might need Zerks..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Steve Lawrence

Mikey P

Administrator
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
114,331
Location
The High Chapperal
So Dan,
Thank you a ton, I have never heard the Wedge lube theory---absolutely awesome.

Mikey, Motorcycle vs Bicycle chain lube is exactly as Dan said. The lube for motorcycles is much thicker to stay on the chain at higher speed and to have a thicker Wedge.

I would only use WD on a bicycle or motorcycle chain I was about to replace to get rid of the squeak so I could ride it back to the shop.

WD displaces water AND the lube that is already there.

Dirt motorcyclists seem to be the most common users of WD on their bike chain as a lot of them use WD to clean the outside of their dirty bikes. ---horrible to use WD on a bike chain.

Chain technology has been focused on in the bicycle industry because we are working with 1/20 th of a horsepower and trying to go as fast as possible with tiny energy input.

The chain is far and away THE most efficient method of transferring energy. But they wear themselves and the gears they run on rapidly. The stretch is easy to measure in a bicycle chain and once the chain stretches a little bit they wear the gears rapidly. Especially small gears--the smaller ones in back and the smaller ones up front.

Motorcyclists get away with bad chain care because energy loss is not a problem, you are not moving the chain from cog to cog regularly like on a bike.

I know this is too long a post for Bama Hogwarts to read..


I got 34k out if a chain and rear sprocket on a road bike

Re applied every 400 miles or so
 

rick imby

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
2,206
Location
Montana
Name
Rick
So it was just the brush roll axle bearings that failed on Steve's unit?


I wish you and he would have told me that.

There aint diddly one can do about getting pre spray in there..

I wonder how The Little Ivan is set up in that area... Might need Zerks..

Or the little Ivan may have multiple seals. There should not be any Pressure to displace the grease only splashed on salts.
 

rick imby

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
2,206
Location
Montana
Name
Rick
I got 34k out if a chain and rear sprocket on a road bike

Re applied every 400 miles or so

A lot of "Clean Freaks" use WD as a lube because what little lube (WD is mainly penetrant) left on the chain does not collect dirt like heavier lubes that are designed for motorcycle chains. I am sure with the way you use power (aggressively) you got chain stretch and cog wear faster because of the WD.

I don't know a lot about motorcycle chains but good ones have o-rings on each pin to keep the lube Wedge. I would bet WD in time will penetrate the O/X ring and create more wear.

Here is a great article on Motorcycle Chains.

http://www.biketorqueracing.co.uk/b...-chain-and-sprockets/o-ring-and-x-ring-chains
 

ruff

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
11,010
Location
San Francisco, CA
Name
Ofer Kolton
Marvelous.
So for the rest of us doodlesacks that own one of these contraptions-
What should we do?

Put some grease in bearings?
Do you need to open a plate or just insert where brush pin holes are?
Will it be spun out all over the carpet?
What grease?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
3,740
Location
Ann Arbor
Name
Steve Lawrence
So it was just the brush roll axle bearings that failed on Steve's unit?


I wish you and he would have told me that.

There aint diddly one can do about getting pre spray in there..

I wonder how The Little Ivan is set up in that area... Might need Zerks..

Hey Mike,
Sorry I wasn't more proactive on the problem and repair of my unit. Just getting old and maybe a little tired of all of these everyday annoyances.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mikey P

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom