Leather colour loss

[Jack May]

Roger/Tony/anyone else

One of my techs was at a very well to do client's home earlier this week and she discussed her leather with him. I was there about a year or so ago doing carpet and from memory, it's a wax pull up or similar.

She has had excessive colour loss and so she took it back to the interior designer's store and said I paid $14,000 for this piece of crap, what are you going to do about it and he showed her the door!!

Anyway, it's getting to the stage where she is getting embarrassed about it (read ready to spend significant dollars) and asked me my tech what could be done.

I remember having an urgent job about a year ago and you recommended Fat liquering but I didn't have the time to get it in within the timeframe the client had. I used an alternative from New Zealand but it didn't give the same results as you've shown in the past.

What I need to know before i go up and see her is liekly otpions and how much I think I can get away with while delivering a solution to her probelm and what it's liekly to cost me to get the stuff in.

I definitely know it's NOT a pigmented leather, so hopefully that wil laid in narrowing down options for you.

The suite is a few years old and I imagine in very good condition, so assume few if any problems in cleaning, but could no doubt benefit from a good cleanings as well.

John

 

[Jack May]

She lives 30 minutes away, but up a goat track on the top of a range... not quite that easy but I'm going out to re tuft some pulled threads for her in a few weeks time and had hoped to take info with me on that trip. Maybe I might have to takes photos then and get back to me.

My tech actually tooks a photo on his phone and emailed it to me, but it came through as 'read only' and it won't allow me to upload to photo bucket for some reason. If anyone knows how to get around that, post or email me.

John

 

[Shorty]

Here's John's photos.

Ooroo,

:wink:

 

[Jack May]

Thanks Shorty... I must have been having a brain fart or something, for the life of me I couldn't get them to upload.

They are fussy taken from a low pixel phone camera but hopefully serve the purpose to get an idea.

Leather id will have to be confirmed at a later date onsite.

John

 

[harryhides]

That is an awful lot of color loss for being just a few years old in misty and foggy New Zealand.
So my guess is that what you have here is a defective dye.

I'd be looking very carefully at where the color loss is in relation to direct sunlight an/or wear.

If it is from light and the wax or other finish is still intact then you have a big problem and that is to remove all of the wax finish in order to have a stable foundation upon which to rebuild you new color on. That is something I've never attempted. I have done this on a much smaller scale.

This one was wax pull up cushions on slatted backed chair that exposed to direct sunlight for years.
Picture shows one before and one after.

 

[Shorty]

Harry, have a squiz at the sunlight, DIRECT SUNLIGHT, coming through the window in the top pic.

The suite also appears to be fairly close to the glass which would magnify the heat.

Copping this most days for several years, with no fat liquoring, I believe would dry that area out.

To me, it even looks "sun bleached", dry and harder than it should be.

John is up the top of the shaky isles, so I reckon that leather would get fairly hot each day.

Then again, he doesn't have to endure the mo(u)ld that I have to. :wink:

Ooroo,

:roll:

 

[Roger Koh]

The below “Process Work Flow Sequence” is the General Structure for Refinishing Wax Pull-up Leathers.

1. Prep Cleaning
Use - prepClean4.4™

2. Degreasing
Use - d’Grease2.2™

3. Cleaning
Use - clean3.8™

4. Rinsing
Use - rinse3.0™

5. Pre-Fatliqouring (Hydrating)
Use - hydrator3.3™

6. Fatliquoring (Softening & Strengthening Leather Structure)
Use - fatliquor5.0

7. Post-Fatliquoring (Strengthening Hydrogen-Bonding between the Cationic Protein Fiber and the Anionic Fatliquor)
Use - rinse3.0

8. Dry Preparations
Use - razor60, stake70, Fine Sanding, Stretching, etc.

9. Surface Wetting Tension Conditioning
Use - surfactant3.6™

10. Repairs
Use - leatherBond3D™, leatherBond7A™, leatherFill90™. d’Scuff94™

11. Impregnation
Use - impregnator26™

12. Primary Structure Penetrating Re-Dyeing
Use - aniPureDye21™

13. Secondary Leather Structure Pull-up Effect Conditioning
Use - waxEffect95™

14. Adhesion Coating
Use - adhesion73™

15. Secondary Transparent Aniline Color Coating
Use - anilineDye27

16. Tertiary Hybrid Translucent Aniline Color Coating
Use - aniColor25™

17. Protective Film Forming Topcoat
Use any of these to match - anilineTop79M™, anilineTop79G™ or anilineTop54HG™

18. Leather Scent Non-Stick Draggy Feel-Conditioning
Use this matching - leatherScent’D™ to condition and to charm.

Knowing the mandatory and optional sequences of processes to suit existing condition to achieve the desired result is the key to successful refinishing.

What do you think?

Leather Doctor®
Roger Koh

 

[Jack May]

So Roger, no fat liquering? or did I mis interpret something?

Secondly, is that something that one could buy and achieve desired results on their first job WITH YOUR SYSTEM?

By the sound of it, not something you want to be doing in their home, right?

John

 

[harryhides]

So Roger, no fat liquering? or did I mis interpret something?

Secondly, is that something that one could buy and achieve desired results on their first job WITH YOUR SYSTEM?

By the sound of it, not something you want to be doing in their home, right?

John

Item #6 = fatliquoring

Yes, though it's always better to have someone with experience walk you thru the process.

Correct and allow at least 10 days to complete.

I saw that Shorty, just razzing John, number of hrs of sun exposure per day over how many years is key here.
Isn't John pretty close to the Antarctic ?

 

[harryhides]

Question for Roger -

12. Secondary Leather Structure Pull-up Effect Conditioning
Use - waxEffect95™

13. Adhesion Coating
Use - adhesion73™

14. Secondary Transparent Aniline Color Coating
Use - anilineDye27

Why does the wax affect here go on before the "adhesion and then more Dye"

I always thought that the wax effect went on after all dyeing products had been applied.

 

[Jack May]

We're close to the hole in the ozone layer and so while we don't get the excessive heat we do have a higher UV index than other countries.

And yes, Tony, mainly sun/light fade.

John

 

[Roger Koh]

So Roger, no fat liquering? or did I mis interpret something?

Secondly, is that something that one could buy and achieve desired results on their first job WITH YOUR SYSTEM?

By the sound of it, not something you want to be doing in their home, right?

John

-----------------




As Tony has answered you the other questions, I shall elaborate on the fatliquoring.

And if you have not seen this “fatliquoring” video from the Discovery Channel click this link:

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discove ... -video.htm

As you can see the large volume of water used for fatliquoring in the video, not possible once leather is made into finished products and in this case is an upholstery to be immerse in a rotating drum.

We are using the same principle to replenish the fatliquor with a non-immersion method (with full leather structure hydrating) to produce the same result as the tannery does it.

So, think of non-immersion fatliquoring as a continuous process that involve the Pre-Fatliquoring (hydrating) and the Post-Fatliquoring (Intensifying the hydrogen-bonding) if we want our fatliquoring system to achieve the same standard as what’s done in the tannery.

The Pre-Fatliquoring or hydrating objective is to hydrate what Shorty has mentioned “To me, it even looks "sun bleached", dry and harder than it should be”.

When leather has been “sun bleached” it will be dried and stiff and when flex may crack because the fatliquor evaporates just like our car engine oil.

As fatliquor evaporates the fibrils becomes stick together, therefore stiffen.

So the creases become the hinges that over work more than the surrounding areas without lubrication weaken and will eventually crack.

The function of the leather-safe pH value 3.3 hydrator is to separates the crushed, stick together fibrils and relaxes them.

It also cationized the protein fibrils thus charging them (+ve), preconditioning them to receive the anionic (-ve) fatliquor molecules.


The Post-Fatliquoring or acidifying rinsing further intensify the (+ve) charges to the protein fibers to receive the (-ve) fatliquor more readily.

You will note that milky fatliquors that lingers on the leather surface been absorbed quickly into the leather structure, thus leaves a squeaky clean surface when rub over by hand.

This acidifying rinsing ensures that all fatliquors are continuous been absorbed at drying intervals rather than remaining on the surface, wasted and may hindrance adhesion on coming successive refinishing.


The question often asked is “How long Pre-Fatliquoring and the Post-Fatliquoring do takes”?

Can you remember how long the fatliquoring in the video takes?

The technique for the hydrating in Pre-Fatliquoring is to feed the hydrator into the leather structure fully and observing the surface evenness void of surface tension at the same time.

The whole leather structure can be cling wrapped with plastic and let to dwell up to 24 hours.

During the fatliquoring process at drying intervals, the wrapping can be repeated up to 24 hours.

When the fatliquoring dwelling is completed, it is then acidify rinse to check for any strays by feel of hand.

Thereafter, a natural slow drying is preferred for extra softness.


This is the time where foreign soil particulates are been suspended in the wicking process and to be extracted with dry absorbent towels and erase off with leatherEraser4 when crispy dry.


I hope this explain how spray-fatliquoring works:

To replenish original fatliquor that diminishes thru sun bleaching, ageing, alkaline exposure or cleaning.

Effectively soften leather and enhance its rip resistance tensile strength.

Relax coarse breaks, creases and wrinkles thus provide drapes, suppleness and prevent cracking.

Helps to keep leather at its optimum physical performance and prevent premature ageing.


You may be surprise that more than 50% of aniline coloring can be restored in this fatliquoring system.

Until you see it to believe it!


The next process is the “Dry Preparation”

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

 

[Roger Koh]

Question for Roger -

12. Secondary Leather Structure Pull-up Effect Conditioning
Use - waxEffect95™

13. Adhesion Coating
Use - adhesion73™

14. Secondary Transparent Aniline Color Coating
Use - anilineDye27

Why does the wax affect here go on before the "adhesion and then more Dye"

I always thought that the wax effect went on after all dyeing products had been applied.



==========


Either way you are right!

In a double restoration, where the structure restoration is of prime importance when structure integrity and characteristic is involved, it has to be restored thus revived to its originality.

The wax pull-up effect is part of the leather constituent; same as the primary fatliquor does diminish too!

Without replenishing at the structural level, it looses its pull-up effect, when stretch.

At the structural level, the goal is to impregnate as much as possible, leaving almost nothing on the surface if possible (even dried residue to be brushed off before activating with heat blower).

Adhesion Coating ensures the successful successive coating to achieve an aesthetic result.

Remember, aniline leathers (unlike pure-aniline or naked leathers) has more resistance topcoating that might hindrance penetrating dyestuff, thus patchiness is some cases.

So, the new technological transparent and translucent coating dyestuff is developed to handle such non penetrating topcoats (remember topcoats gets uneven wear and may still be new in non-body contact areas).

The transparent “penetrating” and “coating” dyestuff are of the same shade, one designed to color the protein fibers the other bites the existing topcoats, thus even out the shade difference.

The other translucent coating dyestuff has more covering power that hides or block-off undesirable darkening effect especially the seat cushions.

With three (3) dyestuff of the same color to help overcome the impossibilities of aniline redyeing most technicians have faced in real situation.

Rarely, you heard of aniline redyeing to its originality with its matched topcoat (usually high gloss) until now.

Note:
For "Restoratative Cleaning or Periodic Maintenance", wax pull-up effect follows after fatliquoring.
All you want is to allow successive application to dried out an even coated powder on the surface to be activated with a heat blower that gives a natural protective gloss.

For "Routine Maintenance" all you need is clean3.8 > rinse3.0 > leatherScent’D (draggy feel).

John,
To use the Leather Doctor® system, training is not a pre-requisite - just follow instructions!

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

 

[Roger Koh]

I'd be looking very carefully at where the color loss is in relation to direct sunlight an/or wear.

If it is from light and the wax or other finish is still intact then you have a big problem and that is to remove all of the wax finish in order to have a stable foundation upon which to rebuild you new color on. That is something I've never attempted.

===============


This is a situation that you will appreciate the “Transparent Coating Dyestuff - anilineDye27” that bites into the existing finishes still intact to achieve your desired intensity of color.

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

 

[Jack May]

Thanks Roger. I'll discuss options with the client and get back to you.

Anyone want to hazard a guess at likely costs for this type of RESTORATION service?

Obviously there's collection and delivery costs I can work out, there are two units from memory, 1x 2 and 1x 2.5 seater. I assume all seat and back rest cushions are removable.

ALso, in you're posts above, you mention a possible 50% colour restored just through fat liquering. Is the dyeing process predictable enough to offer 80, 90, 100% colour restoration?

Thanks, John

 

[Roger Koh]

ALso, in you're posts above, you mention a possible 50% colour restored just through fat liquering.

Thanks, John

----------------


Maybe a more realistic expectation would be another 50 to 90% discount from what I said, until you experience it yourself.

You must know the “why”, the “how” and the “what” that makes the hydrator3.3 and fatliquor5.0 work including the dyestuff already there in the leather structure sufficiently to wick up to the leather surface.

Highly absorbent aniline leathers including suede and nubuck are more promising than those with topcoats!

Otherwise, you may say it’s another “snake oil”.

Or the below three swallow doesn’t make a summer!


However, here’s a testimony from a first timer - Pristine Specialty Cleaning (Montana, USA)


Yesterday I applied the hydrator3.3 to my new project: a sun faded Lazy Boy recliner.

I did my best to wrap it in plastic as is recommended on the bottle.

Today, what a surprise, it works!

The leather is softer and is starting to regain color.

Thank you Leather Doctor



These 20 years old Nubuck are done without dyes or colors by Chet’s Cleaning Inc. (Michigan, USA)

#1A Nubuck Restoration Cleaning (before)

#1B See the extent of color loss!

#1C Nubuck Restoration Cleaning (after).
No! No dyes or colors used.

And this Goatskin Suede done without dyes or colors too!

#2A Goatskin Suede Discoloration

#2B Goatskin Suede Color Restoration - using only hydrator3.3 and fatliquor5.0 processing.

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

 

[harryhides]

Doesn't work in ALL cases but I have seen some even protected pieces regain over 90% of their color with fat liquor alone.
Will put up some pics later bbut gotta run right now.

 

[D Rice]

You guys amaze me. Weeks of nothing in the tool box and then this shows up, don't stop I love it. I learn a lot from all the things I see here. I don't do leather repair yet but I do know enough to not attempt it until I am trained.
Thanks again, Doug

 

[harryhides]

Here is a dried out ten yr old protected leather Sofa.
Note how the color in unworn areas is a bluer green, whereas in the high wear areas it is a more yellowish green

After applying the fat liquor product, this is what it looked like.
NB, no dye or pigment was applied to restore any color.

 

[Roger Koh]

Re: Color repair with hydrator3.3 and fatliquor5.0

These pictures show color repair with hydrating and fatliquoring on a Micro-Pigment leather.


#1 Color Difference

#2 hydrator3.3 at work

#3 Color repair using spray fatliquor5.0 to even out the color

Isn't it simple and easy without the tedious color matching with colors, just milky white fatliquor5.0 and look at the natural depth of color it produced.

What do you think?

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

 

[Shorty]

I reckon it's pretty bloody good Roger.


I'm going to be the dummy and ask the question.


Please explain Micro-Pigment in relation to Normal Pigmented leather as I know it.

Thanks,

:roll:

 

[Roger Koh]

First we must know how to identify it; otherwise we may not know how the fatliquor system (hydrator3.3 + fatliquor5.0 + rinse3.0) works on these pigmented leathers.

You can call it Semi-Aniline if you wish.

These are leathers that is aniline dyed through so you will see the reverse similar colors too, that’s where the color comes from when activated by the hydrator3.3 and/or fatliquor5.0.

These fine top-grain leathers are also semi-absorbent the best between Aniline and Standard Pigmented leathers.

In comparison, standard Pigmented leathers are normally corrected and embossed leathers that have just the standard leather crust color (pale greenish blue if chrome tanned).

The standard Pigmented leathers usually non-absorbent leathers, the only color is the finishes - there is no dyestuff from the leather structure that can help to revive the leather even if it is activated.

The pigment systems for both are different but the application is the same, thus:

For Micro-Pigment or Semi-Aniline leathers refinishing system - use semiColor54 with its matching topcoat semiTop72 G for gloss or M for matte.

For standard Non-absorbent Pigmented leathers refinishing system mainly furnishing - use pigColor64 with its matching topcoat pigTop56 G for gloss or M for matte.

For Auto Pigmented Leathers refinishing system the topcoat is different, much more superior in performance - use pigColor64 with its common matte matching topcoat autoTop62 M.

Now, not to confuse you the Napa Leathers Pigmented system is yet different as they are highly absorbent - use napaColor84 with its matching topcoat napaTop78S for satin or 44G for gloss.

These napa pigment system is commonly found in garments, like HugoBoss.

Pure-Aniline is of a higher grade than the Micro-Pigmented Napa Leathers - they look similar but different.

The value difference for a similar jacket can be from HugoBoss $1'500.00 to Zegna $3'500.00 - can't afford to foul them up without experience.

So,

Normal or Standard Pigmented leathers mainly found in furniture are mainly non-absorbent lower quality than the Micro-Pigment type.

It is always preferably to refinish them into their original characteristic - that is using a fine micro-pigment system for breathability - thus transpiration (capacity to absorb and transmit moisture).

It is common to see non-absorbent pigmented leathers cracking, but not as common to Micro-Pigmented leathers because the leather self regulate moisture itself thus prevent over drying.

Thus if possible I would used the Micro-Pigment system even for refinishing standard Pigmented furniture leathers to have better aesthetic in terms of “hand” and “look” if that is important.

Otherwise you may see many pigmented refinishing that look too “Plasticky” and tendency to crack too soon!

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

 

[Jack May]

Howmuchforallthis and whatcanichargeforit

Roger, is this all on the price list you sent me a while back and are the prices still relevant?

Again, can anyone help in regards to what I should be charging for this type of RESTORATIVE service? I have a warehouse to do the work in, I have access to trucks for the collection and delivery etc, just what is reasonable?

John

The below “Process Work Flow Sequence” is the General Structure for Refinishing Wax Pull-up Leathers.

1. Prep Cleaning
Use - prepClean4.4™

2. Degreasing
Use - d’Grease2.2™

3. Cleaning
Use - clean3.8™

4. Rinsing
Use - rinse3.0™

5. Pre-Fatliqouring (Hydrating)
Use - hydrator3.3™

6. Fatliquoring (Softening & Strengthening Leather Structure)
Use - fatliquor5.0

7. Post-Fatliquoring (Strengthening Hydrogen-Bonding between the Cationic Protein Fiber and the Anionic Fatliquor)
Use - rinse3.0

8. Dry Preparations
Use - razor60, stake70, Fine Sanding, Stretching, etc.

9. Surface Wetting Tension Conditioning
Use - surfactant3.6™

10. Repairs
Use - leatherBond3D™, leatherBond7A™, leatherFill90™. d’Scuff94™

11. Impregnation
Use - impregnator26™

12. Primary Structure Penetrating Re-Dyeing
Use - aniPureDye21™

13. Secondary Leather Structure Pull-up Effect Conditioning
Use - waxEffect95™

14. Adhesion Coating
Use - adhesion73™

15. Secondary Transparent Aniline Color Coating
Use - anilineDye27

16. Tertiary Hybrid Translucent Aniline Color Coating
Use - aniColor25™

17. Protective Film Forming Topcoat
Use any of these to match - anilineTop79M™, anilineTop79G™ or anilineTop54HG™

18. Leather Scent Non-Stick Draggy Feel-Conditioning
Use this matching - leatherScent’D™ to condition and to charm.

Knowing the mandatory and optional sequences of processes to suit existing condition to achieve the desired result is the key to successful refinishing.

What do you think?

Leather Doctor®
Roger Koh

 

[harryhides]

John, I look at it this way.
Your client has only 4 options

1. Do nothing, throw a towel over it.
2. Replace.
3. Re-upholster
4. You

Since 2 and 3 are approx the same price, if you charge 30% of replacement she should be interested and if not now, sooner or later will be back to face the same 4 options.

 

[Jack May]

Thanks Tony. I had wondered if 25% was a tad high, but maybe not. I don't know for sure the cost, but she flippantly said $14k to my tech so at least we're talking up there.

At the same time, I don't want to seel something I can't deliver so will need to attempt to sell the job at such a price yet under sell the likely results.

I'm to call her early next week to book a time to check out her pulled threads problem and will want to discuss option for her leather while there.

I'll keep you informed.

Roger, can you email me the info please with pricing.

John

 

[Roger Koh]

I'm to call her early next week to book a time to check out her pulled threads problem and will want to discuss option for her leather while there.


John

----------------


Remember to take "Good" pictures while there!

I don't think it is a Pull-up!

Look at the deck or sales receipt for leather type description.

The first step to refinishing success is to know the leather type.

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®