5CP Cat pump problem

[Loren Egland]

My 5CP cat pump loses pressure when I don't trigger my wand for a while, such as when I lay it down for a minute or less. It builds back up and keeps working as long as I am cleaning.

I tried back pressure to see if there are any air leaks, but didn't find any.

I opened it up on top and the end (3 nuts on top and 3 on the end) but didn't see anything out of the ordinary when I took a needle nose pliers and pulled out the little contraptions.

It is an older Powermatic Legacy 2100 but only has 200 and some hours on the machine.

Do I need to put all new kits in the pump, or just part of the pump?

Thanks
Loren

P.S. I also have another problem. My other Powermatic that is in my garage was running when I put it away. Now it will start and run for a 3 or 4 seconds and then die. Once it does that I can't get it to start again. The next day I try it and the same thing happens. Could it be flooding? The fuel pump seems to spit out the fuel and it is pretty new. Choke doesn't seem to help. Carbarator seems wet. It did this to me once in a similar fashion before I quit using it. It was idling and just shut off. Wouldn't start. I took it to a repair center, but tried to start it before going in and it started, so I didn't do anything with it. Was running ok for a few days. I am thinking maybe a new carb? BTW, it is a 25 horse Kohler.

 

[GeneMiller]

I don't know your machine but besides air leaks if the water isn't bypassing it will cause the condition that you described. Check the orifice to make sure it isn't clogged. Also if your water is preheated before the pump excessive water temp can cause the same symptons.

The Kohler or any gas engine when left idle for a while can develop problems. You didn't say how long it sat idle but you should run sta-bil through it before shutting it down. You probably just need to clean the carb with some cleaner. Because of power outages ( hurricanes ) we have a generator to run the house. It has been 2 years since I needed it but I run it every week for about 10 minutes. Even with the sta-bil when I was gone for a month I had problems getting it to start. I constantly have to remove friends carbs and clean them because they only get theirs out before season. I don't know a good way to store them for long periods without problems.

Hope this helps

Gene

 

[The Magician]

Sounds like your not getting water to the pump. Clean all your filters and then pull the qd off the machine and see if water comes out the QD.

The carb should be rebuilt on your older machine. You could have had some dirt in the needle and seat.

 

[Scott S.]

when i store an engine (lawn mower type) i always run it out of gas. then when i go to get it out again. i pull the filter, put a dab of gas in the carb, fill it with gas and start it.. always starts right up. keep the oil fresh 2. the gunk will settle and stick in the motor if you dont change it before you put it away.

 

[Dolly Llama]

how long does it take to come up to pressure, Loren?

does the gage show pressure lose and then come up when triggered?

how long before off the trigger before it drops?

does sol temp make any difference?

speaking of temps, did you find out what was wrong with the burner?


..L.T.A.

 

[R W]

Not sure about the pump, but I had the same problem with my '92 Powermatic that sat a while. I would start it, and it would run a few seconds, and then flood out. I did rebuild the carb (those kits are hard to find now). I found the kit in an old mower repair shop. I have the 23 HP Kohler.

As for the pump, would that be "cavitation", or is the pump building up too much heat while sitting? There is a thermo relief valve in the pump plumbing to discharge water after hitting, I think, 180* at the pump?

 

[Jimmy L]

I know when I put my lawn mower away for the winter I add a little liquid carb cleaner to the gas and then let it run out.

Have never had a problem with gummy carbs.

And always made a practice of spraying carb cleaner in my old prochems carb periodically as well as running it thru my van's gas tank.

 

[hogjowl]

I couldn't wade through all the original question ... get abbreviated Loren ... but I bet jImMy's comment was way off topic.

 

[Loren Egland]

how long does it take to come up to pressure, Loren?

does the gage show pressure lose and then come up when triggered?

how long before off the trigger before it drops?

does sol temp make any difference?

speaking of temps, did you find out what was wrong with the burner?


..L.T.A.

I takes several seconds to get the pressure back up. It seems the longer I lay down the wand, to longer it takes to get water coming through it and pressure built up.

The guage shows the pressure drop when I use the trigger and then slowly builds up. Once I am going good, the pressure drop is minimal as expected, but I have to be using it steady.

I have not noticed temperature having any effect. The burner seems to be working well enough now. I really didn't do anything to it.

The Powermatic runs cold water through the pump, but even if the pump gets hot there should be some water flow into the waste tank when it gets too hot, but that should also draw in cold water which should keep water in the pump. It acts like it has no water to pump, or like sucking air, but wouldn't air leakage give me problems even running full tilt?

Thanks for some good advice from you guys on the other Powermatic that has been sitting. I can't seem to even get it to start now. It does sound like I might need some carberator work. I suppose a new one would fix any problems. Erick "the Zipper" maker called and offered some suggestions also. Says he is better at talking than typing. We had a nice chat too.

 

[The Magician]

Its got to be no water to the pump. Is the filter in your garden hose plugged?? Retrace all steps from the garden hose to the pump, thats where the problem is. Got to be a plugged filters somewhere?
Why buy new where it can rebuild the carb. Very easy to do.

 

[Dolly Llama]

Its got to be no water to the pump.

his machine draws from a water box, JIMMY
but you gave me an idea

Loren, have you tried plugging directly into the #7 port on the plenum? (follow the line from the back side of water box to the #7 port)
if not....Plug in there and turn on the water.
Check for leaks.

If no leaks, then start it and turn on the pump and see if the MALF persists.
If it goes away, my "guess" is, one or more of your inlet valves isn't seating right and needs replaced .
It's an easy job, as you've already taken one out.
the valves are what you called a little "contraption" you pulled.

The top row are the outlet/pressure side valves.
The side row are the inlet valves.

all six are the same and interchangeable


..L.T.A.

 

[Guest]

when i store an engine (lawn mower type) i always run it out of gas. then when i go to get it out again. i pull the filter, put a dab of gas in the carb, fill it with gas and start it.. always starts right up. keep the oil fresh 2. the gunk will settle and stick in the motor if you dont change it before you put it away.

Not the best way, there will always be a little gas in the carb bowl that can turn to varnish and an empty fuel tank will be prone to condensation and rust. Gaskets will dry out as well.

Better to fill the tank, add some fuel stabilizer and run it for a while to pull the stabilized fuel into the carb. Change engine oil. Then run the engine while spraying fogging oil in the carb.

To re-fire, start up and run engine to burn off residual fogging oil, then change plug(s) as the oil will likely have fouled them.

 

[Chris Sheldon]

Loren, it kind of sounds like your temp relief valve isn't working. If the water in the pump gets too hot the pump will cavitate and not draw anymore water until the head temp drops again.

 

[Loren Egland]

Larry

I have tried plugging into number 7 and did not find any leaks. I didn't try that while I was running, but suspect that would make the pump work fine. The only thing is I couldn't draw chemical going straight to number 7 with the water hose.

I watched the guage today when I was through with the cleaning job. It held pressure when I was not using the wand for a while, but after not triggering the wand for a while, it would drop pressure almost to zero when I first triggered it, and then would build up slowly as I kept the trigger on or triggered it on and off consistantly. I suppose I could put all new ones in, but the pump has not been used much with less than 300 hours, though it is probably 7 years old. It did seem to have a slight problem at first that just got worse.

On top of that today, I had my machine act up and not want to run right. If I partly choked it, that helped. Took it to a Kohler dealer and a fellow eating his lunch took a look at it. He found that the carb was loose and wobbling. At least it was simple. At first the lady said they had no time today. He was nice to take his time to help.

I priced a new carb for my other Powermatic. $250, but a rebuild kit is $50. Might try one of these options. The machine won't start at all now.

 

[Bjorn]

who did you buy this low hour gem from?

is it some one we know?

 

[The Magician]

Loren, I'm thinking along the line Larry suggested. The pump sat too long and the valves, inlet and outlet could be bad. Change them.
On the carb do not replace it if its going to sit for periods. It will go bad. If your not comfortable with rebuilding it, take it off and bring it to your Kolher dealer. They will probably rebuit it for around $110. After rebuild you need to replace the plugs. They are wet and foulded out. Plull out the plugs and turn the motor over a few times then put in the new plugs.