When and where do you use an Alkaline rinse?

[Cleanworks]

How many people here besides Grant acid rinse their hair after shampooing?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

One of the purposes of "shampoo conditioner" or "rinse" (among many others) is to aid in the rinsing of shampoo. Many years ago (before most all of you were born), some would rinse their hair with vinegar for the same purpose.

So you could say you're acid rinsing your hair if you use a conditioner, though to be fair, conditioner serves several "non rinsing purposes" as well.

I haven't enough hair in length (or quantity) to see the need to use them myself

 

[Jimmy L]

And for some of you ladies vinegar was and still is used as a rinse for your "martys'

 

[hogjowl]

 

[BIG WOOD]

Heck yea, learned I was doing something right for a change....


I'm smarter than I thought

It's good to see you over here. Take a break from the Facebook gurus and jibber jabber over here for a while

 

[Loren Egland]

For 47 years I have used an alkaline powder through my machine, pH under 10. And mostly used a liquid traffic lane cleaner in the 10 range, give or take, depending on situation. Of course I have a high heat/flow capable truck-mount to add to the cleaning pie.

Lots of experienced people have explained what we carpet cleaners often can't process because we want to keep it overly simple. We don't talk about ionics, buffering, compatibility of tlc with detergent rinse, etc. etc.

It doesn't matter what your pH is in your pre spray if you take the time to flush it out of the carpet. It doesn't matter what the pH of your detergent is if it doesn't leave a sticky residue or much residue at all. (well I am sure there are exceptions) I also don't recall
any pH rules that need to be followed when using a carpet protector.

I will use an acid rinse on rare occasions that warrant that approach. But if I want to remove the most soil and contaminants from a carpet, I go for what cleans the best, thus what is really most eco friendly.

On the rare occasion that someone wants our 'Healthy Home Care' program, I use what has already been mentioned, Steam Way Formula O prespray and rinsed with RS2000, and give them the brochure explaining the program. Also as mentioned, there is more to good cleaning than high pH.

Just a few thoughts.

Loren

 

[Onfire_02_01]

Good discussion from a lot of informed cleaners. Someone asked the question about how a carpet could be at a 7 pH when both pre-spray and rinse have a pH around or above 10. Alot of carpet soils are acidic and oil. Acidic soils neutralize some of that alkalinity. Alkalinity is also used to dissolve oils. We did one test with Flex Powder with a pH around 12 on a dirty carpet and rinsed with water resulting in a pH around 9. The drop in alkalinity is a result of it being used up in cleaning. Using a side by side test we rinsed with Flex Ice and got the pH to 7. If you are using pre-spray around 10 and an emulsifier around 10 the neutralization of the pH from soils could easily get the pH to 7. We need to remember that a pH of 10 with a pre-spray diluted 1 to 32 compared to a rinse diluted 1 to 320 and a pH of 10 do not have the same level of alkalinity. In essence the pre-spray has 10 times the alkalinity. Also most rinses with an abundance of rinse aid ingredients will carry away in the water stream not only the "globs of soil and oils" but also most remaining pre-spray. A good rinse in soft water removes most residues including soil and residual cleaning products. Hard water significantly hinders this removal process. If you want to excel at rinsing all types of carpets start with soft water!!!

So Tom, if we are not using soft water would you say we are screwing up your chemistry?

P.s. Great class on Wednesday.

 

[Mikey P]

How about the ZeroRez alkaline super rinse?

So corrosive trucks are falling apart after two years..

 

[Jimmy L]

How do you know that inside info?

 

[BIG WOOD]

How do you know that inside info?

They're all over craigslist in the big cities. They look more rustier than a neglected van from New York

 

[Jimmy L]

Can you find some and post pics?

 

[BIG WOOD]

Can you find some and post pics?

Just last month there were two on the Atlanta Craigslist but they're not there anymore. Someone must've picked those up

 

[Onfire_02_01]

I have had mechanics tell me the same.

 

[GeeeAus]

For 47 years I have used an alkaline powder through my machine, pH under 10. And mostly used a liquid traffic lane cleaner in the 10 range, give or take, depending on situation. Of course I have a high heat/flow capable truck-mount to add to the cleaning pie.

Lots of experienced people have explained what we carpet cleaners often can't process because we want to keep it overly simple. We don't talk about ionics, buffering, compatibility of tlc with detergent rinse, etc. etc.

It doesn't matter what your pH is in your pre spray if you take the time to flush it out of the carpet. It doesn't matter what the pH of your detergent is if it doesn't leave a sticky residue or much residue at all. (well I am sure there are exceptions) I also don't recall
any pH rules that need to be followed when using a carpet protector.

I will use an acid rinse on rare occasions that warrant that approach. But if I want to remove the most soil and contaminants from a carpet, I go for what cleans the best, thus what is really most eco friendly.

On the rare occasion that someone wants our 'Healthy Home Care' program, I use what has already been mentioned, Steam Way Formula O prespray and rinsed with RS2000, and give them the brochure explaining the program. Also as mentioned, there is more to good cleaning than high pH.

Just a few thoughts.

Loren

In Australia there is a relative abundance of wool wall to wall carpet. The pH characteristics throughout the entire process matter a fair bit. We need to make sure our absolute alkalinity issues are good.

With that in play I think sour rinsing is pivotal. Absolute alkalinity is probably the most critical factor. Testing the carpet after wanding will give one an idea. Testing a dry carpet with some distilled water to rewet things can be very telling.

 

[roro]

Ron;
Try to understand the SDS for the products you use. They are the basic info for the products you work with.

Problem in my perception is that most don't understand them. You show a client an SDS but that is the product in the concentrated form in which we buy it. Why not have an SDS that also show the "nasty bits" at the diluted usage rates.
roro

 

[SamIam]

Cleaning wall to wall residential, you get more cleaning punch with a alkaline.

As for how do acid and alkalines effect resoiling on a nylon carpet?

I've used every rinse and pre spray combo carpet in the same house with the same use, seem to resoil the same.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Problem in my perception is that most don't understand them. You show a client an SDS but that is the product in the concentrated form in which we buy it. Why not have an SDS that also show the "nasty bits" at the diluted usage rates.
roro

The new "pictograms" on the totally revised SDS are designed to be visual indicators of hazards for the product as bottled. Respiratory Sensitizer

Extraction efficiency would depend on vac lift levels developed at the wand and water hardness or rinse agent used.

Also, the corrosion of equipment Mikey mentioned is due to

the fact that pure water is more aggressive in removing ANY residue from carpet or machine.

 

[Mikey P]

Also, the corrosion of equipment Mikey mentioned is due to
the fact that pure water is more aggressive in removing ANY residue from carpet or machine.

At one point you were making their magic waters for them, right?

Now I understand they have self contained generators of the magic water on board so they don't have to return to the shop every time the fresh tank needs filling

Are CDS tanks aluminum?

What if they were to put a magic element of some sort in the waste and fresh tanks to neutralize the corrosion?

 

[Onfire_02_01]

A sacrificial Annode would be of help. It would mean having an additional opening in the tanks large enough to allow a mechanic access into the tank to replace said annode because it would have to be at the bottom of the tank.
however that would not stop the corrosion of the vehical itself when water leaked, splashed, or sprayed out.

 

[Cleanworks]

Rinse your tanks and Rhino line your vehicle and you won't have any corrosion problems.

 

[BIG WOOD]

Rinse your tanks and Rhino line your vehicle and you won't have any corrosion problems.

I wonder if anyone has Rhino lined the inside of their tank?

 

[Tom Forsythe]

An answer to Jeremy Gray's question. Hard Water impacts all rinses with water softening agents. The best rinses have phosphates which is one of the water softening agents used. The water hardness of your area determines the impact. We have a location in Virginia Beach with water around 3.0 grains per pound while Salt Lake City has around 15.0 grains per pound. Hard Water impacts rinses 5X more in Salt Lake City than Virginia Beach. We have tested up to 80% of our Blazin Blue in Salt Lake City can be used up softening water and not available for its ability to carry away globs of soil and oils. Most powdered rinses are around $6.00 per pound while water softening salt is around $.15 per pound. Still if a water softener is not for you then I recommend rinsing with Fab Set and using a pre-spray like Bio Break which has enough phosphate to simulate what you are missing in a good rinse. Most pre-sprays do not have alot of phosphate in their formulas as formulators like myself design rinses to perform that function. In all of they research that I have done in the last couple of years on this issue, I was surprised by 2 things: how much hard water in Salt Lake City used up our best rinses in softening water and how many cleaners do not use soft water even with very high heat machines.

 

[SamIam]

An answer to Jeremy Gray's question. Hard Water impacts all rinses with water softening agents. The best rinses have phosphates which is one of the water softening agents used. The water hardness of your area determines the impact. We have a location in Virginia Beach with water around 3.0 grains per pound while Salt Lake City has around 15.0 grains per pound. Hard Water impacts rinses 5X more in Salt Lake City than Virginia Beach. We have tested up to 80% of our Blazin Blue in Salt Lake City can be used up softening water and not available for its ability to carry away globs of soil and oils. Most powdered rinses are around $6.00 per pound while water softening salt is around $.15 per pound. Still if a water softener is not for you then I recommend rinsing with Fab Set and using a pre-spray like Bio Break which has enough phosphate to simulate what you are missing in a good rinse. Most pre-sprays do not have alot of phosphate in their formulas as formulators like myself design rinses to perform that function. In all of they research that I have done in the last couple of years on this issue, I was surprised by 2 things: how much hard water in Salt Lake City used up our best rinses in softening water and how many cleaners do not use soft water even with very high heat machines.

How often does a last step chemical injection truckmount need descaling with the real hard water???

 

[Larry Cobb]

Unlike most formulators, we still use phosphates in our presprays & alkaline rinses.

We believe it suspends soil better than the commonly used sodium carbonates (which we do not use).

Of course, it is also a great water softening agent.

http://www.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=1197

 

[Mikey P]

Unlike most formulators, we still use phosphates in our presprays & alkaline rinses.

We believe it suspends soil better than the commonly used sodium carbonates (which we do not use).

Of course, it is also a great water softening agent.

http://www.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=1197

Larry did you answer my Zerorez question?

 

[Larry Cobb]

Also, the corrosion of equipment Mikey mentioned is due to

the fact that pure water is more aggressive in removing ANY residue from carpet or machine.

Also, one type of water ZR uses is an oxidizer.

 

[Cleanworks]

Unlike most formulators, we still use phosphates in our presprays & alkaline rinses.

We believe it suspends soil better than the commonly used sodium carbonates (which we do not use).

Of course, it is also a great water softening agent.

http://www.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=1197

I believe that's what makes Procyon work so well.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Correct . . .

 

[Jimmy L]

So PROCYON is just a WATER SOFTENER?

 

[Cleanworks]

All phosphate cleaners have water softening qualities. You still need to start with soft water, otherwise the cleaning agent gets used up softening the water and there's not enough strength left over to clean the carpets.