Dye Loc vs ?

Discussion in 'Rugs and Textiles' started by Beeks, Feb 6, 2018.

By Beeks on Feb 6, 2018 at 10:07 AM
  1. Beeks
    Beeks

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    We have used Dye Loc with rather good success for "dye stabilizing" since we started cleaning rugs. Though expensive, the dilution ratio is very good. With that said, Dye Loc has a PH of 7.5, and the normal "dye stabilizing" solution is 1-4ph....trying to understand this better if someone can elaborate why Dye Loc and Acid are both recognized as "dye stabilizers" but the PH levels are acid and neutral

    We want to purchase a large pale or drum of something that compares to Dye Loc, but still want to understand why the substantial difference in PH levels for the two products.
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Discussion in 'Rugs and Textiles' started by Beeks, Feb 6, 2018.

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    1. T Monahan
      T Monahan

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      Why not ask for the scientific explanation from the source of "Dye Loc"?

      I scratch my head often about what is said in the rug washing arena. The name implies, or is suggestive of an objective realized, but in reality, may do something different all together. When you find the official answer, please post it.
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    2. Tom Forsythe
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      https://interlinksupply.com/index.php?item_num=CR14GL

      This a pretty thorough explanation. Make sure that you scroll to the bottom and watch the video. Dye Loc is a special polymer ( it works in the neutral zone of pH) that attaches itself to the dyes. It does not prevent the loose dyes from leaving the fiber, but works to keep them from bonding to other fibers, so that they can be removed through extraction.

      We have added it to Maxim Advanced for Upholstery to limit bleeding when applying a water-based protector. Dye Loc is strongly cationic and is not compatible with most products used to clean wool. Take my word for it as it immediately curdles with an anionic to create a sticky mess that is difficult to remove from even a hard surface let alone a soft surface. The Maxim Advanced for Upholstery is slightly cationic. This is one reason our instructions insist not to mix it directly with any product. Personally, I prefer to use it as an extraction agent so the loose dyes are thoroughly and quickly removed from rugs and upholstery. Our instructions on the label support that method.
    3. cleanking
      cleanking

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      Save your money, don't buy that drum, and go spend it on a class to see how plenty of rug washers, who wash more rugs than we could imagine every day, never use that stuff.

      It's a waste of money and time in an actual rug washing plant.

      Just don't go to one of those classes put on by the morons in the Rug Room, they just want you to buy drum after drum of those Chemax chemicals.
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    4. cleanking
      cleanking

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    5. cleanking
      cleanking

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      I know you couldn't make the class at our place this month. ARCS will be having another Intermediate Hands-on class this coming October in Denver @ Robert Mann's new 24,000sf facility. To be announced in the coming months.

      https://www.rugcarespecialists.org/events-classes
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    6. Desk Jockey
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      I've always heard 3-5% glacier acid was used as a cheap alternative for stabilizing dyes.
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    7. cleanking
      cleanking

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      3-5% Acetic Acid can be used, however it does not work in the same way as dye loc.
    8. Desk Jockey
      Desk Jockey

      Rico

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      Citric works better?
    9. cleanking
      cleanking

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      Nope, citric is used as a mild reducer, like brown out.
    10. Desk Jockey
      Desk Jockey

      Rico

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      Good thing I'm a WDR guy, I 'd never make it as a rug snob. I can never remember y'alls secret hand shakes. :winky:
      Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
    11. Tom Forsythe
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      There are many ways to accomplish various tasks. In my opinion, adding extraction at critical points during your process really helps to limit dye bleed. Dye Loc works better with extraction and I imagine other chemicals do as well. Extraction removes loose dye more efficiently and quickly than a squeegee.
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    12. Cleanworks
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      Index finger in, pinky out. Thumb straight up, shake it all about.
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    13. rmann
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      Tom Forsythe makes a good point. Extraction really does limit/eliminate dye bleed if done quickly and efficiently at critical points in the wash process. This requires wringers and centrifuges. Vacuum suction and compressed air work just fine, but are impossibly inefficient unless you are washing a small number of rugs a day. Even then, there might be better ways to spend your time. We wash a lot of rugs every day, and a minimum of 40-50 Navajo rugs a week. We use none of the commercially prepared 'dye stabilizers', 'dye releasers', 'anti-dye' etc. products, and never have.

      The problem with the marketing of many products today is that it targets the intro level cleaner; the operator with less experience and training, less equipment, less confidence. Having been sold on an expensive and cumbersome product line of 'essential' chemicals, the cleaner may slowly discover that advances in skill and confidence have brought them to a point where cleaning volume goes up, and the need for intro level process and chemicals goes down. Most marketing programs seem to ignore this fact. No surprise, I suppose; who would enter a market with a slogan that announced you'd probably want to graduate from a product as soon as you discovered it was of limited efficacy? Instead, 'echo chamber' style marketing stresses the essential nature of the goods being sold - no matter what, no discussion - often to a point where you wonder if they are about to start passing out the purple Kool-aid.
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    14. Ron K
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      Hi Bob,
      I was taught to let it bleed and then correct. What is meant by that is if you extract incorrectly or at the wrong time, bleeding will still occur and possibly be worse and harder to remove. Since dyes and rugs and situations vary so greatly it is best to be well versed in many corrective procedures.
      Or I could be totally wrong.
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    15. scottw
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      Many (not all) the dyes used for rugs are acid dyes and are more stable in an acid environment. Acetic acid has long been used to help stabilize dyes during washing. Stabilize does not mean prevent them from ever running or bleeding, just make that less likely.

      Dyes can be fugitive for several reasons, their may be excess dyes present, high alkaline cleaning agents may induce dyes to run and those are just the tip of the iceberg.

      When Dye-Loc is used in a wash process, the pH of the Dye-Loc has little to do with the results. Other cleaning agents may be present that influence the pH more so than the Dye-Loc.

      Multiple methods to reduce bleeding may be compatible. You can use an acid to stabilize the dyes. You can use Dye-Loc to keep fugitive dyes in solution and less likely to be deposited on fibers where you don't want them. Another key is to keep the water moving. Some rug plants use a slanted floor or another process that keeps water with any dye present moving off the rug and replacing it with fresh water.

      Extraction at the right time also helps.

      More experienced rug washers like Robert Mann have their preferred methods. But, a novice cleaner may feel more comfortable using every available avenue to reduce the chances of bleeding.

      BTW - Doug Heiferman, Joe Roberts and I will be teaching a rug washing class in Austin Texas May 22nd - 24th. All the methods mentioned here will be tried by students in the class. Thanks to Robert Mann who allowed our students to tour his facility when we held this class in Denver a couple years ago.
    16. Cleanworks
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      I watched a video of a rug washing operation where they were using a fire hose to rinse the rug on a slanted floor. It was a bleeder and you could see the color in the run off water. They rinsed it until it stopped bleeding, then washed it some type of soap and a scrubber, then rinsed thoroughly and put it in a centrifuge. When they took it out to hang, there was no dye bleed. All the excess dye had been rinsed out. Very impressive for a rug hack like me to watch. I just did a small bleeder like that the other day. I don't have a rug pit yet so I did it on my slanted concrete driveway. Heavily contaminated with urine. I used my garden hose to rinse and flush the rug, then scrubbed and cleaned it. Extracted with the zipper until no more moisture appearing in the tube and hung to dry. No dye bleed or shrinkage and the urine odor is gone. I used to be afraid to get a rug that wet but sometimes, not getting it wet enough is what will cause a dye bleed.
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    17. Tom Forsythe
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      There are basic principles that all rug washers should follow. The available equipment will change your methods. Most cleaners who wash rugs do not have the market in their town to own $500,000 of rug washing equipment. Name the rich cities in the country and there will be rug washers with enough volume to support that expensive equipment. Those who follow basic principles can clean rugs in their market, but have to rely on chemistry more than equipment. A carpet cleaner with a portable relies more on chemistry than when he owns a truckmount. Someone once asked me what was my favorite truckmount. I answered that I do not like truckmounts as I like to see my chemistry do the cleaning. The quality of your equipment and amount of experience unfortunately (from my perspective) reduces your reliance on chemistry.
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    18. T Monahan
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      Mr. Mann,

      As I stated in another post on this subject, Centrum Force® wants to distance themselves from "voo-doo science" and we are transparent about all our products. It is better to discuss how it works so expectations do not exceed reality.

      Let me personally go on record about a product Centrum Force® promotes for their Wash Tub users, namely Secret Sauce. It is an additive to be introduced into the contained water vessel of the Wash Tub. It is not meant to be splashed on rugs on the floor and rinsed down the drain.

      Secret Sauce was initially intended to be used in our Wash Tub application for dye management when rugs release dyes during the washing process. We did not sell to the public for years, but rather we confined sales only to Wash Tub owners. The many Wash Tub users have appreciated that unique circumstance for nearly 10 years now. We never said, nor believe, that it locks dyes on the textile.

      Using it in a 1200 gallon paddle wheel wash tub necessitates that it must be used as directed to realize its full objective. The objective is managing and preventing the staining of direct dyes or reactive dyes or re-deposit loose dyes during the wash while inside the Wash Tub. This additive especially has value when multiple textile pieces are being washed together as often is the case with Centrum Force® Wash Tub users. Think of it as a binder or suspending agent to capture loose dyes.

      The key to Secret Sauce is this fact: It has elements of a water-soluble polymer and binding agents.

      Note: It is nonionic and has a ph of 7 undiluted. It has been tested by WoolSafe® and received their seal of approval.

      Of further note: Conventional cleaning agents, detergents and wetting agents do not affect its desired performance. That is why we use our proprietary product known as Knock-Out as our preferred cleaning agent with it in the Wash Tub. Knock-Out is a plant based Colloidal Micelle cleaning product formulated to wash rugs specifically as we suggest. (Incidentally, it makes a wonderful, non scented laundry cleaner for use on clothes in your washing machine at home. It only requires about ½ oz of concentrate for each wash load provided you are using the newer type of water efficient washing machine)

      Secret Sauce and Knock-out, are all WoolSafe® Approved.

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    19. rmann
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      Ron K. there are washers who are skilled at stripping who allow rugs to bleed, and then 'fix them later'. Never seemed like sensible wash practice to me. It's risky and requires unnecessary extra effort. There are a lot of different ways to deal with excess dye on the wash floor as Scott Warrington points out. Refining a range of skills is the key.

      Tom Forsythe, I'm glad you agree that equipment and experience can reduce a washers reliance on chemistry, but in fact we wouldn't make it through a single day without the chemicals we employ. I started out in the washing business long before most of the proprietary formulations popular today were available. You bought detergent, bleach, stripper, acids, and a few other things and mixed it all up yourself. It's mostly what we still do today, though we have found a few really good 'patent' products that we use regularly. The objective at our plant is to use the least amount of chemistry necessary to get the job done. Rinsing excess chemicals out of rugs is a waste of resources. It's the water that does most of the work anyway.

      Tom Monahan, I am a real fan of your wash tub; we own one and use it every day. We do not however use it with the chemistry you supply. I am sure Centrum chemistry has been a great success for the large number of users who do employ it on a daily basis. My approach to using the wash tub is largely based on my experience using similar equipment in rug production wash houses overseas. In fact I still use some of the formulations we worked out in Turkey 25 years ago. We are also very careful about the mix of rugs in the tank. Knowing what is stable, and what isn't, is a big help. In the new plant we are building we'll have nearly unlimited supplies of hot water available which I intend to use in the wash tub. Hot water makes a huge difference in cleaning and allows even lower concentrations of cleaning chemistry to be used.
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